Sox, Boras Oceans Apart in negotiations

[rician blast]

And note that Lucchino was in Japan, and Lucchino made these comments...not Theo. Another indicator that Theo is not working autonomously.

[edge4414]

Would knowing someone like Lugo's arbitration fate change the liklihood that the Sox want to sign him? If he's an 'A' do they not go after him? I'm all for getting prospects and draft picks, all things being equal. But it seems that with someone like Lugo at least they could have locked him up. He's probably leaving Los Angeles and, if offered arbitration, would likely turn it down, right?

 

I'm probably confused about that part of the process... :dunno:

 

What some of you are missing is there are deals already made by some teams who just agree to wait to announce the signings until the arb deadline goes by. Why would any team announce a signing today when if they wait for Sat or Sun they might not have to give up the pick. The deal can still be done!!!!

I don't know if they will offer Lugo. They probably will but they also don't want him back so there is some risk. I think Drew's deal is done and will be announced this weekend

Also if the Sox get a SS back for Manny they probably won't sign Lugo.

[seabeachfred]

On my way to the hospital to today to get my monthly blood check I was listening to Colin Cowherd on the radio (I assume some of you have heard of his daily sports show on ESPN Radio), and he was running down the Red Sox calling them baseball's most disfunctional team. To wit: The Sox talk about chemistry and then let clubhouse men like Damon, Low and Martinez leave, talk about long range plans then let Hanley, Annanel, Freddie and others go, talk about those who can play in Boston and then go after guys like Renteria who can't, talk about players who work the count and then go and get Pena. I was listening and nodding how right he was, then it dawned on me. s***! That's my team he is talking about and I wondered why I get so angry and frustrated at the goings on of OUR team. Now all this talk about arbitration. To me that is crapola. Get the guys we need signed. Most of those draft choices we lost wouldn't probably make it anyway, and most of them would be traded away for retreads like the ones we've been saddled with the past two years.

[jsinger121]

On my way to the hospital to today to get my monthly blood check I was listening to Colin Cowherd on the radio (I assume some of you have heard of his daily sports show on ESPN Radio)' date=' and he was running down the Red Sox calling them baseball's most disfunctional team. To wit: The Sox talk about chemistry and then let clubhouse men like Damon, Low and Martinez leave, talk about long range plans then let Hanley, Annanel, Freddie and others go, talk about those who can play in Boston and then go after guys like Renteria who can't, talk about players who work the count and then go and get Pena. I was listening and nodding how right he was, then it dawned on me. s***! That's my team he is talking about and I wondered why I get so angry and frustrated at the goings on of OUR team. Now all this talk about arbitration. To me that is crapola. Get the guys we need signed. Most of those draft choices we lost wouldn't probably make it anyway, and most of them would be traded away for retreads like the ones we've been saddled with the past two years.[/quote']

 

 

To the Red Sox drafts picks are very valuable. Maybe not to you they are not but to them they are.

[edge4414]

To the Red Sox drafts picks are very valuable. Maybe not to you they are not but to them they are.

 

They are valuable to anyone who understands how the game is run today.

 

It's like going to buy a car when a $5000 sale starts Saturday but you go to scout Friday and say the heck with the $5000 I'll buy it now.

[riverside sluggers]

Its foolish for people to still bash the Red Sox for not giving Pedro the contract he wanted

[seabeachfred]

To the Red Sox drafts picks are very valuable. Maybe not to you they are not but to them they are.

 

They're not very valuable if they are used eventually to trade away for players who don't produce for the Red Sox. Think about that!!! Hasn't it happened so many times before?

[riverside sluggers]

Name the exact compensated draft picks for letting "big" players go, who have went on to produce good numbers for teams they were traded to

[seabeachfred]

They are valuable to anyone who understands how the game is run today.

 

It's like going to buy a car when a $5000 sale starts Saturday but you go to scout Friday and say the heck with the $5000 I'll buy it now.

 

Everything you said was true but there is a danger to that as well. Maybe while we wait the player we covet without having to give up a draft choice is taken by someone else and we lose out. Could happen.

[TheKilo]

On my way to the hospital to today to get my monthly blood check I was listening to Colin Cowherd on the radio

 

 

Your first mistake.

[seabeachfred]

Your first mistake.

 

You've heard of him, too? I really don't like the guy and liked what he was saying less, but he did make some good points and I wonder if the front office really knows which direction they want to go. It seems to me that there is still a power stuggle going on between Lucchino and Theo.

[seabeachfred]

Name the exact compensated draft picks for letting "big" players go' date=' who have went on to produce good numbers for teams they were traded to[/quote']

 

All I know Riverside is that we seem to talk up our young players and then trade them away, so I wonder just what good those draft choices do to us in the long run if what we get for them doesn't translate into good dependable players. We've lost Matt Murton, Freddie Sanchez, Hanley Ramirez, and before than I remember losing Jeff Bagwell for a guy named Anderson. Red Sox history is resplendent with draft picks who were used for players that never helped us in any big way. You could probably add to the list if you tried.

[rician blast]

The Sox talk about chemistry and then let clubhouse men like Damon' date=' Low and Martinez leave, talk about long range plans then let Hanley, Annanel, Freddie and others go, talk about those who can play in Boston and then go after guys like Renteria who can't, talk about players who work the count and then go and get Pena. I was listening and nodding how right he was, then it dawned on me. s***! That's my team he is talking about and I wondered why I get so angry and frustrated at the goings on of OUR team. Now all this talk about arbitration. To me that is crapola. Get the guys we need signed. Most of those draft choices we lost wouldn't probably make it anyway, and most of them would be traded away for retreads like the ones we've been saddled with the past two years.[/quote']

 

I think many Sox fans have expressed some level of what you heard today. I know several guys here have been more than a little puzzled by the direction the team is going...i.e. are they rebuilding or playing for today, are they in a youth movement or are they not, are they looking for big OBP numbers or sluggers, do they want to be pitching rich or go with whatever they have.

 

While I wouldn't necessarily bash the FO as I'm sure Colin did, I share some of this confusion. But when I think about this I tend to think "gee the FO MUST have a plan and the moves they're making...or not making...must be part of that plan."

 

As for the results, some sh*t works, some doesn't and that's the nature of baseball and Lucchino and the primary owners are just as responsible for all of it as is Theo.

[Ray10]

Well the Sox have sent another offer to Boras and Matsukaza and let's hope this time it's the right one and the Sox get this deal done. I mean common Boras knows this guy is dying to play in the big leagues so just come to terms with the Sox already and stop stalling the whole thing it's getting annoying.

 

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/article.jsp?content=20061128_094358_5840

[edge4414]

All I know Riverside is that we seem to talk up our young players and then trade them away' date=' so I wonder just what good those draft choices do to us in the long run if what we get for them doesn't translate into good dependable players. We've lost Matt Murton, Freddie Sanchez, Hanley Ramirez, and before than I remember losing Jeff Bagwell for a guy named Anderson. Red Sox history is resplendent with draft picks who were used for players that never helped us in any big way. You could probably add to the list if you tried.[/quote']

 

Seabeach

The purpose of a farm system is to develope depth so you can keep your roster young but also to trade for pieces. Even Larry Anderson was traded for a legitimate purpose to help us get to the playoffs that year. We just traded the wrong 3B prospect. Murton helped us win the WS and Hanley gave us Beckett. You may not like that deal now but how did you feel at the time it was made. I still like the trade and think Beckett will really turn it around. The Sanchez trade I will agree. We should have known Suppan couldn't pitch here.

[jacksonianmarch]

It happened with Ichiro' date=' so it wouldn't surprise me if every teams' post amount included a provision for this kickback. Here's to hoping your cpu goes apeshit and you can't share your addled thoughts anymore.[/quote']

 

addled thoughts? LOL. Either way, ignoring you should be the new process as your bitterness refuses to let you talk rationally.

 

As for updates, Lucchino made a "fair and comprehensive" offer today. We'll see how fair it is.

 

Another update, the sox are close to signing a 30yr old left reliever from Japan. His name is escaping me right now, but it is on ESPN.

[CrespoBlows]

Hideki Okajima?

[jacksonianmarch]

Hideki Okajima?

 

thank you. Yes, him. ESPN reported that he is in final negotiations with the sox.

[edge4414]

thank you. Yes' date=' him. ESPN reported that he is in final negotiations with the sox.[/quote']

 

Just so we know ahead of time what will your reaction be if the NYY are the 25 mil bidder for Igawa?

[jacksonianmarch]

Just so we know ahead of time what will your reaction be if the NYY are the 25 mil bidder for Igawa?

 

I think it would be a poor investment.

[ORS]

addled thoughts? LOL. Either way, ignoring you should be the new process as your bitterness refuses to let you talk rationally.

 

As for updates, Lucchino made a "fair and comprehensive" offer today. We'll see how fair it is.

 

Another update, the sox are close to signing a 30yr old left reliever from Japan. His name is escaping me right now, but it is on ESPN.

It was a joke. I didn't know you were so sensitive. All I can say is, if you are going to operate with the M.O. of being Contrary Mary, you know, where you oppose everything the Sox do just for the sake of opposing, then you need a little thicker skin.

[jacksonianmarch]

It was a joke. I didn't know you were so sensitive. All I can say is' date=' if you are going to operate with the M.O. of being Contrary Mary, you know, where you oppose everything the Sox do just for the sake of opposing, then you need a little thicker skin.[/quote']

 

okay, I'll try.

[seabeachfred]

I think many Sox fans have expressed some level of what you heard today. I know several guys here have been more than a little puzzled by the direction the team is going...i.e. are they rebuilding or playing for today, are they in a youth movement or are they not, are they looking for big OBP numbers or sluggers, do they want to be pitching rich or go with whatever they have.

 

While I wouldn't necessarily bash the FO as I'm sure Colin did, I share some of this confusion. But when I think about this I tend to think "gee the FO MUST have a plan and the moves they're making...or not making...must be part of that plan."

 

As for the results, some sh*t works, some doesn't and that's the nature of baseball and Lucchino and the primary owners are just as responsible for all of it as is Theo.

 

Rician, this morning the papers and radio were full of blather about how Manny was going to the Dodgers, but I stopped in a market to get a paper this afternoon and now it said the Dodgers aren't going to give the Red Sox three players for Manny so the deal looks dead. Are we all being played like a fiddle? Hell, if someone wanted me to wager what's gonna happen next I would decline. I now haven't a freakin' clue from all the different bombardments I've been hit with the past few days. I wonder if the FO really knows who all this is going to turn out?

[seabeachfred]

Seabeach

The purpose of a farm system is to develope depth so you can keep your roster young but also to trade for pieces. Even Larry Anderson was traded for a legitimate purpose to help us get to the playoffs that year. We just traded the wrong 3B prospect. Murton helped us win the WS and Hanley gave us Beckett. You may not like that deal now but how did you feel at the time it was made. I still like the trade and think Beckett will really turn it around. The Sanchez trade I will agree. We should have known Suppan couldn't pitch here.

 

Edge, mistakes are made by all teams and I wasn't just trying to single out the Red Sox for this, but I keep hearing from Theo that he has a long range plan, but we still keep trading our young players away. We had Youk this past season, Pedroia on tap for 2007, and Ellsbury in 2008 along with maybe Bucholz and Bard on the hill. So maybe we are finally making a step in the right direction, but from where I sit the best team is usually a blend of proven vets and some young guys thrown in there for some energy and fresh blood. Beckett? You have never heard me bag on him and you won't; I just wonder if we had to give that much to get him.

[ORS]

Why do the trades that have been made give people the notion that any reference to a LTP are BS? Look at who was acquired. Beckett, Crisp, and WMP are all young players entering their prime age. The only one that didn't was the Return of the 'Belli trade, and the FO has admitted that was a foolish panic move.

[Gom]

Why do the trades that have been made give people the notion that any reference to a LTP are BS? Look at who was acquired. Beckett' date=' Crisp, and WMP are all young players entering their prime age. The only one that didn't was the Return of the 'Belli trade, and the FO has admitted that was a foolish panic move.[/quote']

 

I think mainly because teams involved in receiving LTP are not the big market teams, like our two teams. Plus, its not like you gave up old, decrepit players in the Beckett, Crisp, and WMP deals. In fact, you got older. The Red Sox were supposed to "win" those trades this year, with the other teams potentially "winning down the road". The fact that they turned out to be miserable deals for the Sox so far doesn't bode well for them down the road either.

 

Since Theo can't make a decent trade anymore...maybe signing Japanese players IS the way to go for the Sox, lol. Hope you guys love sushi!

 

I tried...but I couldn't resist.

[ORS]

That went right over your head.

 

The proof isn't in the results. When people say, "They can't really have an LTP if they give up Hanley", then they are being either disengenuous, or outright ignorant. The player received for Hanley was a 25 y/o fireballer with over 500 MLB innings logged. Sure, the guy is an immediate impact player, but due to his age, he's certainly part of an LTP. The only way that statement about Hanley holds merit is if the return is a vet on the tail end of his career who can provide only immediate value.

 

EDIT: And, you really, really need to grow up.

[seabeachfred]

Why do the trades that have been made give people the notion that any reference to a LTP are BS? Look at who was acquired. Beckett' date=' Crisp, and WMP are all young players entering their prime age. The only one that didn't was the Return of the 'Belli trade, and the FO has admitted that was a foolish panic move.[/quote']

 

ORS, I will buy Beckett because I think this guy is going to be something special and have always maintained that. Crisp? I am witholding comment until I see him perform next season. People used excuses that we was hurt last season but when he came he kept his average in the low 290's and then slumped badly, culminating in that disastrous 1 for 19 debacle against the Yankees when we need him to perform at his best and not worst. Pena? Well, if we trade Manny we may be stuck with him but I am not optimistic about a guy who after eight years of pro ball still cannot read a fly ball worth a damn. So the jury is still out on those two. One thing that we should do, though, is look ahead and see where we can get stronger for next season. There is no way to undo the past two seasons and the past series of trades and acquisitions, only learn from them.

[ORS]

ORS' date=' I will buy Beckett because I think this guy is going to be something special and have always maintained that. Crisp? I am witholding comment until I see him perform next season. People used excuses that we was hurt last season but when he came he kept his average in the low 290's and then slumped badly, culminating in that disastrous 1 for 19 debacle against the Yankees when we need him to perform at his best and not worst. Pena? Well, if we trade Manny we may be stuck with him but I am not optimistic about a guy who after eight years of pro ball still cannot read a fly ball worth a damn. So the jury is still out on those two. One thing that we should do, though, is look ahead and see where we can get stronger for next season. There is no way to undo the past two seasons and the past series of trades and acquisitions, only learn from them.[/quote']

Your opinion of those players does little to sway me from my point. They acquired young players. Maybe the scouting wasn't all that it should have been, but when you acquire young players, you aren't just looking for the immediate impact. You are looking forward also. That is why calling the LTP a bunch of BS is flat out wrong.

[example1]

On my way to the hospital to today to get my monthly blood check I was listening to Colin Cowherd on the radio (I assume some of you have heard of his daily sports show on ESPN Radio)' date=' and he was running down the Red Sox calling them baseball's most disfunctional team. [/quote']

 

He also regularly says that he watched nearly every Yankees game last year. Cowherd is an ass, I'll just say it. I listen to him every day on the way to work because he makes me think with all of his asinine comments and I think many people in his former stomping grounds (Portland, Oregon, where I am) agree.

 

This is a man who has the biggest anti-baseball bias of any national sports radio personality I've heard. Did you hear the part where he says he would let all suspected 'roid users with good numbers (Sosa, Mac, Bonds, Palmero) into the hall of fame, because it doesn't matter if they've admitted or there are court transcripts, we can't PROVE anything? What about the part a few months back where he insulted the HOF for being "too selective" and saying it should be more like the football hall of fame (despite the fact that most of us probably don't know 3/4 of football HOFers). How about the persistent comments he makes approaching the trade deadline, mockingly talking about "hot minor league prospects" and how teams are stupid to hold onto them. He was saying, almost virbatum, "the Angels should trade however many 'hot minor league prospects' as it takes to land Soriano for 3 months. This guy would have traded Jared Weaver AND Brandon Wood AND Howie Kendrick for a 'big time' player. He's an idiot and, since he never reads my ranting-e-mails to him critiquing him, I'll rant to you .

 

To wit: The Sox talk about chemistry and then let clubhouse men like Damon, Low and Martinez leave, talk about long range plans then let Hanley, Annanel, Freddie and others go, talk about those who can play in Boston and then go after guys like Renteria who can't, talk about players who work the count and then go and get Pena. I was listening and nodding how right he was, then it dawned on me. s***! That's my team he is talking about and I wondered why I get so angry and frustrated at the goings on of OUR team.

 

It is very easy to be critical of the 29 or so teams that DON'T win a WS. Very, very easy. If you would rather have Lowe and Martinez on your team now, instead of the 6 or so draft picks they got for those guys (and O-cab) then you're insane. Pedro is done. Lowe was a headcase and wanted too much money for what he would give back.

 

Now all this talk about arbitration. To me that is crapola.

 

You think that's maybe because its not your money? I know it doesn't matter to most people whether or not we get access to players for 6 years at 300,000 a year and that NOBODY cares that the difference between having a 26 year old Papelbon for 3 more seasons at less than 400,000 is different than competing with every other team for him at 15,000,000 but the people who are driving the ship are aware of that and they have DOMINATED the draft the past few years. The only reason they gave up Anibel and Hanley is because they COULD. They still have Bowden, Buchholz and Bard. They still have (had) Lester and Papelbon. I just don't see the big deal. Draft picks are for two purposes: trading and developing. As long as they use them for one of the other I'm fine with it.

 

 

Get the guys we need signed. Most of those draft choices we lost wouldn't probably make it anyway, and most of them would be traded away for retreads like the ones we've been saddled with the past two years.

 

If you think first round draft picks aren't important than I'm sorry. They are in every other sport and they are in baseball. Yes, not every one is going to be a hit, but the ones that are a hit end up costing twice as much when relatively unproven as the most expensive NBA or NFL player. They're expensive to get once they've made it.