Becket VS Papelbon

[scaffolds]

Jonathan Papelbon showed in 2006 to be one of the top ML relievers, showing a mid 90's fast and a splitter, its well known that because his health issues its very unlikely that Papelbon will be a closer again (at least for the time being) As a starting pitcher Papelbon isn't anywhere close to as a closer, as his fastball drops into the low 90's and even at 92 there is questions if he can maintened deep into a game, of course the splitter, but the third pitch which a starting pitcher needs is an average at best slider.

 

Josh Beckett had a hard time adjusting to the Al in 2006 and the high amount of HRs allowed is one of the signs of it, another reason was the pitching coach with Dave Wallace being out most of the season and Al Nipper not being a quality ML pitching coach. Beckett has plus, plus stuff with three above average pitches with a mid 90 fastball which he can maintain deep into games that could touch as high as 97-98, a curveball and a change up. Beckett's curveball was somewhat inconsistent in 06 and his change could be better if he could take some speed from it, with a new pitching coach those adjustments could take place.

 

In conclusion Beckett is the better starter a # 1 or 2 in a starting pitching staff while Papelbon doesn't project more than a #3 or 4.

[MANNYHOF24]

Actually in his starts in 05, he hit 95-96 when he had to. He obviously wont do it every pitch but, if he needs to he can. As for Wallace, the whole pitching staff was better under Nipper this season I dont know if that has anything to do with Wallace's return or not.

[BSN07]

No wallace returned right around the same time Tek went down. I would say that had more reasoning behind the pitching staff debacle. Plus with all the young arms we had throwing this year, we had to expect half the pitching staff to hit that so called "wall."

[scaffolds]

The key word is maintaining it, sure Papelbon can touch 95-96, heck he has done as a closer, but Beckett can throw it deep into games.

[BSN07]

I agree that Beckett is the better starter. But I also think Papelbon in time, maybe not this year, will be a quality starter. He will develop those pitches he needs to so that they work at any point in the game for him. I see him having too much poise and talent to be a 5th starter. But if it would ever come down to it, I think they would make him back into a closer rather then have him as a fifth starter. He will just have to change his training so that the shoulder problem occur less.

[MANNYHOF24]

The key word is maintaining it' date=' sure Papelbon can touch 95-96, heck he has done as a closer, but Beckett can throw it deep into games.[/quote']

 

Beckett also got racked for 36 Homeruns, Papelbons splitter is better than Becketts curve ball... I think they are both going to have great seasons next year anyways... I think Papelbons a 1-2 starter not a 3-4.

[BSN07]

I just wouldn't be surprised to see him struggle a little out of the gate. Just until he get's used to the new role. I hope it doesn't happen, but I'm not gonna be unrealistic towards the guy and expect him to shutdown everyone just like he did when he was a closer.

[scaffolds]

Without a question i disagree, Like i posted earlier Papelbon is a two pitch pitcher and the reason his splitter was so good as a closer it was because it worked off his plus fastball which he won't have as starter. Beckett indeed allowed 36 HR, but unless you have a cristal ball we don't know how manny HRs Papelbom will allowed in a full season as a starter, again Papelbon isn't a 1 or 2.

[BSN07]

Ya I don't have a crystal ball and have no idea how it will work out. But I still rather have him on the team then half the guys that are free agents. Maybe someday he will be a closer. But for know the starter experiment is on! So let's try not to run the guy into the ground if he struggles. As Red Sox fans we can have a tendancy to be "what have you done for me lately"bunch. Not all of us but every some of us out there and you know who you are!lol:)

[scaffolds]

Bosox; My post was mainly directed to Manny's Post. I never said that Papelbon will be a worst starter than some of the free agents starters in the market, but that he won't any better than Becket and that he is better and has more value as a closer than he would be as a starter.

[BSN07]

Yes scaffolds I know just throwing my 2 cents worth in. Just adding to the competitve bannter.

[scaffolds]

No problem at all.

[scaffolds]

One more point, Becket is a proven ML pitcher one that won 15 and 16 with very average teams like the Marlins in 2005 and the Red Sox in 2006.

[Cityofchampions33]

Beckett also got racked for 36 Homeruns' date=' Papelbons splitter is better than Becketts curve ball... I think they are both going to have great seasons next year anyways... I think Papelbons a 1-2 starter not a 3-4.[/quote']

 

Im not sure papelbons splitetr is better then becketts curve, but Beckett doesn't have as much consistentcy or control of it like Paps has. However I agree, Paps is a 1-2, not a 3-4.

[jacksonianmarch]

Of course you think Papelbon is a 1 or a 2. Thing is, right now, he has to be a huge ??? and the big questions are.

 

Can he stay healthy for a whole yr?

Can he develop something other than the fastball split combo?

 

A two pitch pitcher in today's game will get slaughtered come the 4th or 5th inning.

[scaffolds]

Some Red Sox are fanatics and they fall in love with its players like Youkilis and Papelbon and fails to see the whole picture. There is a big difference between being a fan and a fanatic. there are a lot fanatics in boards like this.

[a700hitter]

Of course you think Papelbon is a 1 or a 2. Thing is, right now, he has to be a huge ??? and the big questions are.

 

Can he stay healthy for a whole yr?

Can he develop something other than the fastball split combo?

 

A two pitch pitcher in today's game will get slaughtered come the 4th or 5th inning.

The biggest question is his health. Hopefully, the training staff has developed a program for him that will keep the shoulder joint strong and tight. While I don't think he will be anywhere close to as dominating as he was as a closer, I think his two pitches --- the fastball and the split are good enough to allow him some success. He started to use a breaking pitch more often as the season went on. That should improve as time goes on. How many pitches does Wang have. I don't recall him having a big repretoire of pitches, but the devastating sinker and his control have allowed him to be very successful.

[scaffolds]

700; I never said that he wasn't going to have sucess, just that he isn't a 1 or a 2. Papelbon breaking pitches are average, not more than that and while I am a Yakee hater it doesn't stop me to see that Wang has a plus, plus sinker.

[a700hitter]

700; I never said that he wasn't going to have sucess' date=' just that he isn't a 1 or a 2. Papelbon breaking pitches are average, not more than that and while I am a Yakee hater it doesn't stop me to see that Wang has a plus, plus sinker.[/quote']I was addressing my comment to the post that said a two-pitch pitcher will get slaughtered in the 5th inning. I don't think that is true if the pitcher has plus command like Papelbon or Wang.

[mar_022]

I think people are forgetting that this guy was a starter all through the minors, and he had great success doing it. I remember seeing highlights of his starts in 05, and it sure looked like he had some solid breaking stuff working to me. I think he went away from his slider when he learned the splitter (i dont think he had it, at least not as good til schilling mentored him) because he didnt need the slider as a closer. True, he may stumble out of the gate, but i'ver heard some projections by stat gurus that have put him on an ERA just under three! We shall see. And as for injuries, the sox really think that starting will be better on his shoulder. The starting routine will keep his shoulder in better shape, which is necessary for him as their family is prone to loose joints

[scaffolds]

A two pitch staring pitcher has very little room for mistakes.

[jacksonianmarch]

I was addressing my comment to the post that said a two-pitch pitcher will get slaughtered in the 5th inning. I don't think that is true if the pitcher has plus command like Papelbon or Wang.

 

It is very different for a sinkerball pitcher. A sinkerballer essentially knows that he wont get taken out of the yard. This makes him very effective in that he limits the amounts of flyballs he will allow. This makes a pitcher like Wang capable of being a one pitch pitcher for a decent amount of innings. But, you need to have an elite sinker to do so and only a few guys can make that claim.

[MANNYHOF24]

A two pitch staring pitcher has very little room for mistakes.

 

As a closer Paps had three pitches... He used his slider alot and it was very effective. He has also showcased a curveball that with a little work could be very good.

[jacksonianmarch]

He has 2 pitches with a show slider. That works great in relief. You need to have a3 pitches you have confidence in. If you want to see a guy with 2 elite pitches, take a look at RJ. His 95mph fastball and sick slider is not enough in the AL. He has a splitter that is a show me splitter and that was good enough for a 5era.

[MANNYHOF24]

Randy Johnson is 43 years old, and he lost the bite on his slider, eventually great pitchers break down and suck.

[scaffolds]

As a closer Paps had three pitches... He used his slider alot and it was very effective. He has also showcased a curveball that with a little work could be very good.

 

You must be watching a different pitcher than I have, Papelbon's slider is average at best.

[MANNYHOF24]

I dont know who you watched when he started in 05, but he threw 93-95 consistantley and featured 4 pitches while having a 2.25 Era in three starts. Papelbon has great control, Beckett does not.... thats why Beckett got killed last year.

[Fried Neckbones]

It also seemed like Beckett threw a lot less curves this past year than he usually does/did when he was in FLA. It was almost as is management wanted him to not throw them as often, give the blisters a chance to heal up and the arm to actually get to 200 innings, and said the hell with outcomes. I know Beckett is a stubborn s.o.b., but there is no way a big-league pitcher with a curve as good as his keeps attacking AL power hitters with fastballs all the time, unless he has been, let's say strongly encouraged to stay away from his curve. Hopefully, the handcuffs will be off this season, and he will mix in his curve more often.

[ksushi]

It amazes me to see such low expectations from papelbon. That first post was way off. Even in his relief appearances Papelbon sometimes took a little off and threw in the low 90's. Its the movement and location that makes his fastball so dominant. As a started I expect him to be very good. I don't expect him to win us 20 games, I don't expect him to have a one-something era, but he will definetly be a solid 2nd tier starter this year. He is a good pitcher. Who is that other guy who throws mostly just fastballs and splitters on our team? Oh yeah... that Curt Schilling guy. And hes not that bad. His slider is pretty middle of the road, I would argue Papelbon has a better slider than curt. Paplebon will be a successful starter. I think Beckett has the chance to be an ace this year, I don't think that about Papelbon, but I can easily see Beckett and Papelbon both having ace-like seasons down the road.

[scaffolds]

It amazes me to see such low expectations from papelbon. That first post was way off. Even in his relief appearances Papelbon sometimes took a little off and threw in the low 90's. Its the movement and location that makes his fastball so dominant. As a started I expect him to be very good. I don't expect him to win us 20 games' date=' I don't expect him to have a one-something era, but he will definetly be a solid 2nd tier starter this year. He is a good pitcher. Who is that other guy who throws mostly just fastballs and splitters on our team? Oh yeah... that Curt Schilling guy. And hes not that bad. His slider is pretty middle of the road, I would argue Papelbon has a better slider than curt. Paplebon will be a successful starter. I think Beckett has the chance to be an ace this year, I don't think that about Papelbon, but I can easily see Beckett and Papelbon both having ace-like seasons down the road.[/quote']

 

My man stay way from the sushi it affecting your eye sight and with your lack of baseball knowledge isn't a good combination.