September 30th vs Baltimore

[jsinger121]

Actually if they win tomorrow's game & Toronto loses' date=' they will be in 2nd place. They can still finish tied for 2nd place with both teams winning or losing their respective games.[/quote']

 

I'd rather finish in 3rd and get the higher draft pick.

[a700hitter]

Actually if they win tomorrow's game & Toronto loses' date=' they will be in 2nd place. They can still finish tied for 2nd place with both teams winning or losing their respective games.[/quote']There is that possibility, but there is also the rain out possibility. There are bad weather forecasts in NY and Boston tomorrow. They will not diddle around very long with rain delays. We may have seen the fitting end of the season today.

[YanksHater213]

Wow surprisingly good game. Papi gives us some excitement at the end. I had a good time.

[a700hitter]

I'd rather finish in 3rd and get the higher draft pick.

Yeah, that makes a big difference, especially considering that the draft is a very inexact science and somewhat of a crapshoot. The Yankees have picked up some pretty good young players outside of the draft, e.g. Cano and Wang. Here's a link of first round draft choices since 2000. It demonstrates just what a crapshoot the draft is. These are first round picks and not that many guys make it to the majors, and very few become stars.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/history/draft/index.jsp?feature=decade2000s

 

Here are the first round picks from the 90's

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/history/draft/index.jsp?feature=decade1990s

 

Letting established stars walk to get draft picks is not much better than getting a lottery ticket in return, and if the picks aren't in the first round the odds are way worse.

[riverside sluggers]

This is truely looking like today will be the last game for Trot Nixon as a Red Sox. Time to think about what he did for the Sox in the past, not the present.

 

redsox.com

 

The Red Sox enter Game No. 162 needing a victory to have any chance of finishing the season with a share of second place in the American League East. Entering the contest against the Orioles, Boston trails the second-place Blue Jays by one game. The big story of the day will revolve around right fielder Trot Nixon. The veteran, who was drafted by the Red Sox in 1993, is on the verge of free agency for the first time in his career.

 

This might be Nixon's last game in a Boston uniform.

 

"He is the ultimate professional and the ultimate gamer," said Red Sox pitcher Tim Wakefield. "When he plays, he straps it on and goes and gets 'em full bore."

 

Nixon will be in the starting lineup and manager Terry Francona said that he will take him out of the game at some point so the Fenway Faithful can give a show of appreciation.

 

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/2003-mlb-playoffs/13nixon.jpghttp://espndeportes.espn.go.com/2003/photos2005/0429/a_nixon_trot_vt.jpghttp://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20050509/nixon_78235.jpg

[ORS]

Letting established stars walk to get draft picks is not much better than getting a lottery ticket in return' date=' and if the picks aren't in the first round the odds are way worse.[/quote']

You'd be right if that's all that some teams did. If you replace those stars with quality players you can really take advantage of the supplemental pick loop-hole. Here's how it works:

 

You let your type-A FA walk, getting you a pick from the team that signed him - these picks are usually first rounders since the teams that sign high $ free-agents tend to finish in the top-15 - and a supplemental round pick. You sign another type-A FA to replace him. This means you have replaced a quality player with a quality player. You have to give up your first round pick here, but what you have done is essentially trade draft slots in the first round while picking up a supplemental round pick.

 

As you said, the draft is a crap shoot, so it's better to have more picks. And, supplemental round picks are between the first and second round, so quality talent is usually still available there.

 

The Sox did this. They replaced quality with quality. What went wrong is injuries. Clement/Wells of '05 produced at the same rate as Pedro/Lowe of '04, but they did little in '06 because of injuries. Coco never was the same after snapping his knuckle.

[a700hitter]

You'd be right if that's all that some teams did. If you replace those stars with quality players you can really take advantage of the supplemental pick loop-hole. Here's how it works:

 

You let your type-A FA walk, getting you a pick from the team that signed him - these picks are usually first rounders since the teams that sign high $ free-agents tend to finish in the top-15 - and a supplemental round pick. You sign another type-A FA to replace him. This means you have replaced a quality player with a quality player. You have to give up your first round pick here, but what you have done is essentially trade draft slots in the first round while picking up a supplemental round pick.

 

As you said, the draft is a crap shoot, so it's better to have more picks. And, supplemental round picks are between the first and second round, so quality talent is usually still available there.

 

The Sox did this. They replaced quality with quality. What went wrong is injuries. Clement/Wells of '05 produced at the same rate as Pedro/Lowe of '04, but they did little in '06 because of injuries. Coco never was the same after snapping his knuckle.

Replacing Pedro/Lowe withe Clement/Wells. I am gagging. I don't think anyone felt good about that even before the injuries. The FO totally mispent the savings for letting Lowe and Pedro walk and they got a couple of Lottert tickets for it. Letting Pedro go looks like the right move because the medical staff probably knew about the condition of his shoulder, but letting rubber-armed Lowe walk for draft choices and clement or wells is just plain silly. And we are seeing how well it has turned out. No $ savings, injured Clement, injured Wells, injured Pedro, Lowe playoff bound. I realize that we got Hansen with this extra pick, which was lucky if you loook at the guys picked before and after him, but he is a long, long, long way from being the quality major leaguer that would justify letting Lowe walk. Successful teams don't let their stars walk for nothing. If you are going to let your stars walk, do it the way Florida does it. Lert them go a year earlier by trading them for top prospects in the minors. Minor league success is a much higher barometer for Major league success than high school or college.

[jsinger121]

Actually we got we got Clay Buchholz and Jonathan Egan for Pedro with the draft picks. Ellsbury, Michael Bowden, Hansen and Jed Lowrie were first rounders that year as well. Buchholz could essentially make it to Boston by the end of next year while Pedro may never pitch again.

[a700hitter]

Actually we got we got Clay Buchholz and Jonathan Egan for Pedro with the draft picks. Ellsbury' date=' Michael Bowden, Hansen and Jed Lowrie were first rounders that year as well. Buchholz could essentially make it to Boston by the end of next year while Pedro may never pitch again.[/quote']

 

We will see about all of them. I'm not holding my breath on any of them. In a best case scenario, they are all several years away from becoming impact players, and most of them will be forgotten 5 or 6 years from now.

[jsinger121]

We will see about all of them. I'm not holding my breath on any of them. In a best case scenario' date=' they are all several years away from becoming impact players, and most of them will be forgotten 5 or 6 years from now.[/quote']

 

Some may flame out some may not but going forward I'll take them over a washed up Pedro.

[a700hitter]

Some may flame out some may not but going forward I'll take them over a washed up Pedro.

If Pedro's medical condition was known to the Red Sox, then they should have let him walk regardless of draft picks, but what about Lowe and Johnny Damon. By the time Bucholz cracks anyones rotation as a top of the rotation or #3 starter, Lowe will have about 75 major league wins under his belt from the time he left the Red Sox. That's a lot of major league wins that the Sox are having great difficulty in replacing as they are waiting for Bucholz.

[ORS]

Replacing Pedro/Lowe withe Clement/Wells. I am gagging.

Gag all you want. I've shown you the numbers before. They were equivalent. Neither of them came close to Pedro, but both gave the Sox a better chance to win than Lowe did in '04. Had they stayed healthy, they would have probably done the same this year.

 

If you are going to let your stars walk, do it the way Florida does it. Lert them go a year earlier by trading them for top prospects in the minors. Minor league success is a much higher barometer for Major league success than high school or college.

Not true. If you can afford to replace talent with talent, you take advantage of compensatory picks like the Sox did. Florida had to sell the house because they don't have the resources to make those types of replacements. Also, that means Pedro and Lowe are gone before the '04 season starts, meaning no WS title that year.

[a700hitter]

Not true. If you can afford to replace talent with talent' date=' you take advantage of compensatory picks like the Sox did. Florida had to sell the house because they don't have the resources to make those types of replacements. Also, that means Pedro and Lowe are gone before the '04 season starts, meaning no WS title that year.[/quote']

I'm not in favor of the way Florida does things. As you pointed out, they don't have the resources to keep their stars or to replace then with other established major leaguers. However, it seems that you are advocating swapping out known winning talent that has been successful in Boston for other expensive talent (witness that the payroll has not declined) that is untested in Boston and inferior, and that the draft choices are part of this strategy? The Angels have undertaken this strategy, and they too have taken a powerhouse lineup that could bludgeon you to death into a pop-gun offense that can't beat the A's. John Lackey as reported in today's Herald has publicly criticized the Angels FO for its approach. It's in Massoroti's article today. It's a hard hitting article that shows the work that needs to be done by the FO this off-season.

 

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=160102

[ORS]

However' date=' it seems that you are advocating swapping out known winning talent that has been successful in Boston for other expensive talent (witness that the payroll has not declined) that is untested in Boston and inferior, and that the draft choices are part of this strategy? The Angels have undertaken this strategy, and they too have taken a powerhouse lineup that could bludgeon you to death into a pop-gun offense that can't beat the A's.[/quote']

What exactly is so different from the Angels team that won it all? They kept the key cogs. Garret Anderson declined with age, Tim Salmon got hobbled and was only able to DH, Erstad fell off the planet, and Kennedy reverted to his career numbers. Spezio is gone, big loss there. They let Bengie Molina go after he became a serious liability behind the dish. They did the opposite of the Sox. They brought in one top-flight player and held the status quo.

 

Half-way through the year this was a top run-scoring offense, and even though they were scoring with ease the biggest offensive holes were, IMO, Trot and Tek, two players with a history of success in Boston. The other was Crisp, who never recovered from his injury. Lowell and Youk adequately replaced Mueller and Millar.

 

This team didn't score many runs in the 2nd half because of Manny and Ortiz missing games, and missing Manny for a month or more was the biggest factor in my mind. He makes pitchers pitch to Ortiz, he drives in runs prodigiously, and he's always on base making the hitters behind him better because the pitchers won't nibble as much with men on.

 

In one regard, we do agree. They can't replace Manny. If the FO wants to get a taste of what the team will be like without him, they only need to look at the month of September. Putrid offense. I love Papi, but Manny is the straw that stirs the drink in this lineup, IMO.

[a700hitter]

What exactly is so different from the Angels team that won it all? They kept the key cogs. Garret Anderson declined with age' date=' Tim Salmon got hobbled and was only able to DH, Erstad fell off the planet, and Kennedy reverted to his career numbers. Spezio is gone, big loss there. They let Bengie Molina go after he became a serious liability behind the dish. They did the opposite of the Sox. They brought in one top-flight player and held the status quo.[/quote']I don't think that Lackey was limiting his comments to a comparison to the 2002 Roster, nor am I. As you pointed out, they maintained status quo and even added to the team for the next couple of years. He was talking about the cumulative effect of losing Washburn, Sele, Percival, Byrd, Molina, Eckstein, and last but not least Troy Glaus (who was one of the most feared guys in their lineup). He noted that these guys brought more to the clubhouse than numbers. Dare I say intangibles. He also referred to some of the role players. I realize that a number of these guys had health issues, but so did the guys that they brought in to replace them-- Colon, Escobar as well as some of the young guys that they had relied upon to step in. You really can't predict injuries with a lot of accuracy. The Red Sox called it right with Pedro, but they let a healthy Lowe, Damon and O Cab walk. They picked up two pitchers that both went down with injures after one year. Additionally, letting these guys walk created some hole that cost us some prospects to fill the immediate holes. It has not been a very effective strategy, and we are seeing the results on the field, and their work is really cut out for them for 2007, because their is not a whole lot of help coming up within the system.

[a700hitter]

The Blue Jays have won and clinched 2nd place. This is the first time that the Sox have no finished 2nd since 1997. Thank you FO.

[MC Hammer]

The Blue Jays have won and clinched 2nd place. This is the first time that the Sox have no finished 2nd since 1997. Thank you FO.

Does is really matter if we finish in 2nd or 5th?

 

We're not in the playoffs.

[a700hitter]

Does is really matter if we finish in 2nd or 5th?

 

We're not in the playoffs.

No, it matters that they weren't even competitive for the last 6 weeks of the season. The third place finish was well-deserved and more reflective of the type of team that the were.

[MC Hammer]

No' date=' it matters that they weren't even competitive for the last 6 weeks of the season. The third place finish was well-deserved and more reflective of the type of team that the were.[/quote']

Fair enough.

[yankeessuck013]

whens the game going to start?

[schillingouttheks]

No idea. The rain is starting to lighten up though.

[Cocos Disciples]

Hansack has looked good, no?

[a700hitter]

It was sad to watch Nixon take that last trip off the field. He's a gamer, a true professional.

[example1]

It was sad to watch Nixon take that last trip off the field. He's a gamer' date=' a true professional.[/quote']

 

 

Definitely brought a tear to my eye... but that's business and baseball is definitely business.

 

I hope the rain subsides so this game can finish. However, it would be a fitting end to just have the game sort of fade away without much closure.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Definitely brought a tear to my eye... but that's business and baseball is definitely business.

 

I hope the rain subsides so this game can finish. However, it would be a fitting end to just have the game sort of fade away without much closure.

 

That was sickeningly poetic, but true.

[Papelbon58]

um, by the way, Hansack has this thing called a no-hittter going.

 

I hope the fans stick around to give Nixon his due, but I think he has to step aside and let Wily Mo take over. I think Hinske should stick with us too.

[Youk Of The Nation]

um, by the way, Hansack has this thing called a no-hittter going.

 

I hope the fans stick around to give Nixon his due, but I think he has to step aside and let Wily Mo take over. I think Hinske should stick with us too.

 

You arent supposed to say it, you dork. You're lucky the game was just called after five.

[Papelbon58]

i know, just thought it was bad that nobody recognized it

[Papelbon58]

And the 2006 season is over. It was great for Papi, awkward for Manny, disappointing for Beckett and crushing since August. Lets go into the offseason with thoughts of next year. Hopefully with Schilling and a healthy Papelbon. Remember Trot Nixon. Remember Tim Wakefield. Remember 2004, and that missing the playoffs is not the end of the world. We waited 86 years, we can stand to have an off season. On to 2007.

[a700hitter]

um' date=' by the way, Hansack has this thing called a no-hittter going.[/quote']Too bad they changed the rule for no-hitters.