Dontrelle on the block

[jsinger121]

Hansen, Ellsbury and Martinez that should get their attention.

 

It may but the Red Sox are unlikely to propose that and that offer can be trumped by at least 3 other teams.

[a700hitter]

It may but the Red Sox are unlikely to propose that and that offer can be trumped by at least 3 other teams.

If someone trumps it, fine, or the Sox sweeten the pot. The Sox need to get involved in the sweepstakes if the Marlins are going to move him.

[jsinger121]

If someone trumps it, fine, or the Sox sweeten the pot. The Sox need to get involved in the sweepstakes if the Marlins are going to move him.

 

The Sox don't have the chips to sweeten the pot after getting rid of 2 big ones in the Beckett deal 1 in the Crisp deal. They are thin on position prospects which is something the Marlins desperately need. Arizona, LAA, LAD all have the positional prospects to beat out Boston. Theo shouldn't even consider trading Hansen who is a big part of this future. Willis is a pipe dream.

[Manny Goes Boom]

If someone trumps it, fine, or the Sox sweeten the pot. The Sox need to get involved in the sweepstakes if the Marlins are going to move him.

 

Agreed, someone that good isn't worth at least trying to get. It would be amazing to have him.

[Manny Goes Boom]

The Sox don't have the chips to sweeten the pot after getting rid of 2 big ones in the Beckett deal 1 in the Crisp deal. They are thin on position prospects which is something the Marlins desperately need. Arizona, LAA, LAD all have the positional prospects to beat out Boston. Theo shouldn't even consider trading Hansen who is a big part of this future. Willis is a pipe dream.

 

OK, so in your opinion...who would those three teams have to give up?

[jsinger121]

OK, so in your opinion...who would those three teams have to give up?

 

LAA (Kendrick, Wood, Aybar, Morales come to mind) LAD (Joel Guzman, Andy LaRoche) ARZ (Carlos Gonzalez, Carlos Quentin, Miquel Montero)

 

those are the bigs name potentially they would have to give up along with mid level guys as well.

[Manny Goes Boom]

LAA (Kendrick, Wood, Aybar, Morales come to mind) LAD (Joel Guzman, Andy LaRoche) ARZ (Carlos Gonzalez, Carlos Quentin, Miquel Montero)

 

those are the bigs name potentially they would have to give up along with mid level guys as well.

 

OK...well I think, from what I know about the Diamondbacks...Quentin won't be going anywhere, don't really know much about Gonzalez and I've heard of Montero...but thats about it. I have to admit...I don't know much about prospects (Although...Wood went to I BELIEVE a local high school here in Arizona)

[jsinger121]

OK...well I think, from what I know about the Diamondbacks...Quentin won't be going anywhere, don't really know much about Gonzalez and I've heard of Montero...but thats about it. I have to admit...I don't know much about prospects (Although...Wood went to I BELIEVE a local high school here in Arizona)

 

Oh I forgot about Chris Young as well the guy the Dbacks got in the Vasquez deal. He's a good outfield prospect as well. Ya they are loaded in the outfield with Quention, Gonzalez, Upton who will eventually play center and Chris Young.

[a700hitter]

The Sox don't have the chips to sweeten the pot after getting rid of 2 big ones in the Beckett deal 1 in the Crisp deal. They are thin on position prospects which is something the Marlins desperately need. Arizona, LAA, LAD all have the positional prospects to beat out Boston. Theo shouldn't even consider trading Hansen who is a big part of this future. Willis is a pipe dream.

Another reason why letting Damon go was a mistake is that they would still have a major chip (Marte) available to land a big fish like Willis. Instead they had to use it to replace the CF that they let walk. Crisp is a lesser version of Damon, and after 4 years of Damon, Ellsbury would have been able to step in and take the spot. I don't mind if they let guys walk when they have guys in the system that are ready to step in and replace them, but I think the FO has been foolish to let Pedro and Damon walk when there was no one in the system to step in. Beckett and Crisp (who are not as good as the guys they let walk) have cost them dearly in prospects. Blue-chip prospect should be traded only when it will improve your team and fill a need. HanRam, Annibel Sanchez, and Marte were sacrificed needlessly. You guys that love the future prospects have said nothing about this foolish use of blue chip prospects, but you scoff at using them to fill a void like a top of the rotation with a stud like Willis.

[TheKilo]

Another reason why letting Damon go was a mistake is that they would still have a major chip (Marte) available to land a big fish like Willis. Instead they had to use it to replace the CF that they let walk. Crisp is a lesser version of Damon, and after 4 years of Damon, Ellsbury would have been able to step in and take the spot. I don't mind if they let guys walk when they have guys in the system that are ready to step in and replace them, but I think the FO has been foolish to let Pedro and Damon walk when there was no one in the system to step in. Beckett and Crisp (who are not as good as the guys they let walk) have cost them dearly in prospects. Blue-chip prospect should be traded only when it will improve your team and fill a need. HanRam, Annibel Sanchez, and Marte were sacrificed needlessly. You guys that love the future prospects have said nothing about this foolish use of blue chip prospects, but you scoff at using them to fill a void like a top of the rotation with a stud like Willis.

 

There's no real correlation to the loss of Pedro and the acquisition of Beckett, but I'll give you that much that the Sox needed to make a bigger effort to try and resign Pedro. At the time the Beckett deal went down, I'm fairly sure Renteria was still on the team and still had 3 years left on his deal, meaning Hanley was just going to be held back here anyway. So he was moved to bring in the 2003 World Series MVP and a Gold Glove third baseman who's hitting .310 this year. I also think that with the arms the Sox had in their farm system, Sanchez would have been blocked just like Ramirez. So that trade was, and still is, OK in my book.

 

Damon's situation was a little bit different, because it seemed like the FO handled it the wrong way. They lowballed him and then let the Yankees snatch him up. So they had to make a trade that filled a pretty big hole. I'm not saying Crisp is going to be anywhere near as potent as Damon offensively, but he's faster and better with the glove. In all honesty, with the improvements made in the offseason to the pitching staff (namely the Beckett signing, and the fact that Schilling and Foulke were once again going to be healthy, I think the FO didn't feel like they needed Damon's bat as much. And keep in mind, he left town for a lousy $3 million more a year, to a team he said he'd never go to. I don't think they handled it as well as they could, but I do think they got one player entering his prime as another was leaving his.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

LAA (Kendrick, Wood, Aybar, Morales come to mind) LAD (Joel Guzman, Andy LaRoche) ARZ (Carlos Gonzalez, Carlos Quentin, Miquel Montero)

 

those are the bigs name potentially they would have to give up along with mid level guys as well.

 

Those teams could trump the Red Sox but perhaps they don't want to. None of us have any clue if those teams are high on Dontrelle Willis or not. It is possible they don't like him and would rather stick with there prospects. The LAA shouldn't be considered because everything I hear says they are not making a run this season and could be selling instead.

 

Also, how do we know the Marlins aren't real high on some of the Red Sox prospects?? How do we know the GM isn't in love with Craig Hansen or Ellsbury or Pedroia or ANY of them??

[Mr Crunchy]

i too find it ironic that many here are of the mindset that theo wont f*** around with the future while ignoring all the people he moved....

as far as lowell being a .300 hitter with a goldglove??

he was a salary reducer,a throw in,,a 9million dollar hit that theo was willing to accept and he was written off by more than 1 scribe as washed up in march

youk was here as was jt snow if lowell struggled

3 months later??

lowell should be in the allstar game

[a700hitter]

There's no real correlation to the loss of Pedro and the acquisition of Beckett.

They may have done the Beckett deal anyway, but they desperately needed a #2. This was obvious in' 05 when they had no #1 or 2 without Pedro or a healthy Schilling.

Damon's situation was a little bit different, because it seemed like the FO handled it the wrong way. They lowballed him and then let the Yankees snatch him up. So they had to make a trade that filled a pretty big hole. I'm not saying Crisp is going to be anywhere near as potent as Damon offensively, but he's faster and better with the glove.

He has a better arm than Damon, but he is not better with the glove. He doesn't get the jump that Damon does. He frequently breaks late or the wrong way.

And keep in mind, he left town for a lousy $3 million more a year, to a team he said he'd never go to. I don't think they handled it as well as they could, but I do think they got one player entering his prime as another was leaving his.

$12 million over the term of the contract is not chump change by any standard. Anyone would have done what Damon had done. It was a no-brainer.

[TheKilo]

They may have done the Beckett deal anyway, but they desperately needed a #2. This was obvious in' 05 when they had no #1 or 2 without Pedro or a healthy Schilling.

 

And that team still made the playoffs somehow. I really fail to see your point here.

 

He has a better arm than Damon, but he is not better with the glove. He doesn't get the jump that Damon does. He frequently breaks late or the wrong way.

 

Where are you seeing this? It looks like Coco has played a fairly solid CF to me. It's not like he's WMP out there.

 

$12 million over the term of the contract is not chump change by any standard. Anyone would have done what Damon had done. It was a no-brainer.

 

Probably, i don't fault him over his business decision. But he DID say he would never go to the Yankees, for any amount of money. Maybe this played a part in the way they handled their negotation process.

[DUSTINMOHR4LIFE]

I really don't see Theo trading any prospects that are a big part of our future.

[a700hitter]

And that team still made the playoffs somehow. I really fail to see your point here.

...and they got swept out of the first round. You need a strong #1 and 2 if you want to advance in the playoffs. It's very hard to bludgeon your way through the playoffs to a championship. How can you fail to see the point that once Pedro walked, the threat of the Red Sox as a serious playoff contender was gone? In '04 they had the two big studs at the top of the rotation, and in '05 they had none and won zero playoff games. I don't know how much clearer I can make it, the FO was desperate for a top of the rotation starter.

Where are you seeing this? It looks like Coco has played a fairly solid CF to me.

He's not bad, but Damon clearly is the better fly-chaser. Not too many people would argue with that.

But he DID say he would never go to the Yankees, for any amount of money. Maybe this played a part in the way they handled their negotation process.

If they approached their negotiations based on the player's remarks to the press, that's not too smart, especially knowing his agent. I think it is more likely that they didn't care if he came back, and they had their sights on Crisp all along.

[TheKilo]

...and they got swept out of the first round. You need a strong #1 and 2 if you want to advance in the playoffs. It's very hard to bludgeon your way through the playoffs to a championship. How can you fail to see the point that once Pedro walked, the threat of the Red Sox as a serious playoff contender was gone? In '04 they had the two big studs at the top of the rotation, and in '05 they had none and won zero playoff games. I don't know how much clearer I can make it, the FO was desperate for a top of the rotation starter.

 

I'll give you this much. However, I don't think Wells was bad in game 2 and I don't think Wake should have started game 3. I'll take my chances with Schilling. Basically, the playoffs is a crapshoot once you get in there. I think no one expected Clement to s*** the bed as bad as he did considering his first half. Wells pitched well enough to win game 2.

 

 

He's not bad, but Damon clearly is the better fly-chaser. Not too many people would argue with that.

 

But if Coco is making the plays, I don't know what you're arguing about.

 

If they approached their negotiations based on the player's remarks to the press, that's not too smart, especially knowing his agent. I think it is more likely that they didn't care if he came back, and they had their sights on Crisp all along.

 

I did say they handled the process poorly. But if Damon says he isn't going to the Yankees, then what team is going to exceed the Red Sox's 4/$40 million deal? I think the FO made its push for Crisp once Damon jumped ship.

[a700hitter]

Basically, the playoffs is a crapshoot once you get in there.

It's really not. The teams with the better pitching usually win. Withou a legit #1 or 2 (Schilling was injured and well below par), the Sox were not favored to advance,...and they didn't advance.

But if Coco is making the plays, I don't know what you're arguing about.

Damon is better and makes more plays, plus he is an offensive force. Coco is not.

[TheKilo]

It's really not. The teams with the better pitching usually win. Withou a legit #1 or 2 (Schilling was injured and well below par), the Sox were not favored to advance,...and they didn't advance.

 

That's fine, what I'm basically saying is that in a 5 game and two 7 game series, any team that makes the playoffs has a decent shot at winning the whole thing.

 

Damon is better and makes more plays, plus he is an offensive force. Coco is not.

 

And you base this off of what, 40 or so games? If memory serves Damon tailed off quite a bit last year in the second half.

 

Anyway, the whole point of this argument was that prospects were sacrificed needlessly, but when they bring back proven young talent, how is that the case? The prospects were dealt to fit needs. You said it yourself the Sox needed a legit #2. So prospects that weren't going to get a real shot in Boston were shipped for Beckett. It was Damon's decision to walk and go to the Yankees, so they traded for a young, talented CF.

[a700hitter]

Anyway, the whole point of this argument was that prospects were sacrificed needlessly, but when they bring back proven young talent, how is that the case? The prospects were dealt to fit needs. You said it yourself the Sox needed a legit #2. So prospects that weren't going to get a real shot in Boston were shipped for Beckett. It was Damon's decision to walk and go to the Yankees, so they traded for a young, talented CF.

You are right. This is where the discussion started. My point is that the FO created those needs by letting established guys walk. If they had kept Pedro and Damon and still made the Beckett trade, that would be some formidable starting staff, and they would still have Marte to possibly get Willis or just to take over for Lowell in 2008.

[riverside sluggers]

Another reason why letting Damon go was a mistake is that they would still have a major chip (Marte) available to land a big fish like Willis. Instead they had to use it to replace the CF that they let walk. Crisp is a lesser version of Damon, and after 4 years of Damon, Ellsbury would have been able to step in and take the spot. I don't mind if they let guys walk when they have guys in the system that are ready to step in and replace them, but I think the FO has been foolish to let Pedro and Damon walk when there was no one in the system to step in. Beckett and Crisp (who are not as good as the guys they let walk) have cost them dearly in prospects. Blue-chip prospect should be traded only when it will improve your team and fill a need. HanRam, Annibel Sanchez, and Marte were sacrificed needlessly. You guys that love the future prospects have said nothing about this foolish use of blue chip prospects, but you scoff at using them to fill a void like a top of the rotation with a stud like Willis.

 

Well you were clamoring for the Sox to trade Lester for Willis

 

About Ellisbury, its still looking like that he will step into the leadoff/center field role when he's fully groomed in the minors. Coco will more than likely revert back to left field like he did when Grady Sizemore came in.

 

Coco & Beckett are both 26, not in their mid-30s. They wont be the same players in 10 years, only can get better. Becketts adjusting to the AL while Coco is bouncing back from a hand injury. That must have some affect on his bat, right?

 

Ah sorry but youre stuck with the "not as good" Coco Crisp for 4/5 more seasons. A guy who is in his prime is really going to pull down the team, damn you Theo

 

IMO Beckett wasnt the immediate pitcher that Sox acquired after Pedro left. Wells & Clement were the 05 replacements for Lowe and Pedro.

[a700hitter]

Well you were clamoring for the Sox to trade Lester for Willis

 

About Ellisbury, its still looking like that he will step into the leadoff/center field role when he's fully groomed in the minors. Coco will more than likely revert back to left field like he did when Grady Sizemore came in.

 

Coco & Beckett are both 26, not in their mid-30s. They wont be the same players in 10 years, only can get better. Becketts adjusting to the AL while Coco is bouncing back from a hand injury. That must have some affect on his bat, right?

As you know, I fully support the trading of any prospects in the right trade(s) that would help put the Sox over the top as a top playoff team. I don't agree that we should let current talent walk without having a groomed replacement, because then the FO is forced to use prospects to trade for replacements. I would rather use prospects to fill existing holes not FO created holes. Do you know what kind of powerhouse this current team would be if you added back Pedro and Damon. They'd still have all the young arms plus Marte as top prospects poised to move in as guys got old. The Sox would be totally steamrolling through the regular season. We wouldn't be watching Jason Johnson or Kyle whatever his name is.

 

BTW: As good as Lester looks, getting Willis would have been sweet. He's a total stud horse, and he knows how to pitch and he's only 24. I love the way this kid Lester has been tossing, but it would be way premature to think he will be better than Willis.

[TheKilo]

As you know, I fully support the trading of any prospects in the right trade(s) that would help put the Sox over the top as a top playoff team. I don't agree that we should let current talent walk without having a groomed replacement, because then the FO is forced to use prospects to trade for replacements. I would rather use prospects to fill existing holes not FO created holes. Do you know what kind of powerhouse this current team would be if you added back Pedro and Damon. They'd still have all the young arms plus Marte as top prospects poised to move in as guys got old. The Sox would be totally steamrolling through the regular season. We wouldn't be watching Jason Johnson or Kyle whatever his name is.

 

BTW: As good as Lester looks, getting Willis would have been sweet. He's a total stud horse, and he knows how to pitch and he's only 24. I love the way this kid Lester has been tossing, but it would be way premature to think he will be better than Willis.

 

 

So if we signed Damon, what you're basically saying is you'd move Lester and Marte for Willis, correct?

 

The Marlins already have a decent 3b. You might know him, he goes by the name of Miguel Cabrera. What makes you think the Marlins even do that deal?

[a700hitter]

So if we signed Damon, what you're basically saying is you'd move Lester and Marte for Willis, correct?

 

The Marlins already have a decent 3b. You might know him, he goes by the name of Miguel Cabrera. What makes you think the Marlins even do that deal?

Where did I say that I would give both guys for Willis? I don't believe that I said that, but now that you mention it, I'd do it if Fla would. Cabrera also can play the OF. It would be a pretty formidable lineup to have Marte and Cabrera plus Uggla.

 

BTW: It's funny how you set up a straw man (not based on any of my statements) and then you attempt to knock it down. What is even funnier is how bad you are at it.

 

Edit: Imagine a rotation of Schilling, Pedro, Beckett, Willis. It gives me chills

 

The lineup could have been Damon, Loretta, Ortiz, Manny, Nixon, Youklis, Lowell, Varitek, Gonzo

 

Oh what a team! And it could have been if the FO wasn't so busy outsmarting itself and going into a self-absorbed hissy fit this past of-season.

[MC Hammer]

So if we signed Damon, what you're basically saying is you'd move Lester and Marte for Willis, correct?

 

The Marlins already have a decent 3b. You might know him, he goes by the name of Miguel Cabrera. What makes you think the Marlins even do that deal?

I understand that this is all hypothetical, but you do understand that both Cabrera and Marte play the OF as well, right? It's not like the Marlins wouldn't take one of the top prospects in baseball just because he can't play his first position.

[TheKilo]

Where did I say that I would give both guys for Willis? I don't believe that I said that, but now that you mention it, I'd do it if Fla would. Cabrera also can play the OF. It would be a pretty formidable lineup to have Marte and Cabrera plus Uggla.

 

BTW: It's funny how you set up a straw man (not based on any of my statements) and then you attempt to knock it down. What is even funnier is how bad you are at it.

 

Edit: Imagine a rotation of Schilling, Pedro, Beckett, Willis. It gives me chills

 

The lineup could have been Damon, Loretta, Ortiz, Manny, Nixon, Youklis, Lowell, Varitek, Gonzo

 

Oh what a team! And it could have been if the FO wasn't so busy outsmarting itself and going into a self-absorbed hissy fit this past of-season.

 

 

 

Then who were we going to give up for Willis? I just assumed you meant to include Lester because you advocate movieng Lester for Willis all the time. I also assumed Marte would be in the deal because you griped about him being let go once Damon walked.

 

 

So inform me. If I'm so bad at this, you tell me who we could trade for the Marlins to get Willis.

[a700hitter]

So inform me. If I'm so bad at this, you tell me who we could trade for the Marlins to get Willis.

Although I hadn't thought about that trade combination, I think it would haqve worked for both teams. A rotation of Schilling, Pedro, Beckett, and Willis would have been lights out.

[TheKilo]

Although I hadn't thought about that trade combination, I think it would haqve worked for both teams. A rotation of Schilling, Pedro, Beckett, and Willis would have been lights out.

 

 

I think this has gone one long enough. Don't you agree?

 

Agree to disagree.

[a700hitter]

I think this has gone one long enough. Don't you agree?

 

Agree to disagree.

I did agree with you. You suggested that I would have traded Marte and Lester for Willis. I agreed that I would have done that. Do you agree that a staff of Schilling, Pedro, Beckett and Willis would be unstoppable? It's hard to conclude that they could have pulled off a deal for Willis, but it was completely in the power of the FO to have a top 3 of Shill, Pedro and Beckett.

[TheKilo]

I did agree with you. You suggested that I would have traded Marte and Lester for Willis. I agreed that I would have done that. Do you agree that a staff of Schilling, Pedro, Beckett and Willis would be unstoppable? It's hard to conclude that they could have pulled off a deal for Willis, but it was completely in the power of the FO to have a top 3 of Shill, Pedro and Beckett.

 

 

You're right. I agree the Sox should have signed Pedro.