Pedro is 5 - 0 I'm eating my words...

[Dana Kiecker]

I hate to derail this thread... so maybe Ill start a poll thread on this very subject..

 

EDIT: Clemens is a 7 time Cy Young award winner, 1 time MVP award winner, over 300 wins and over 4,000 strikeouts .

[MANNYHOF24]

Yes he's a different pitcher but I have to agree with Teddyballgame on this one. He'd be good in the American League, but i don't think he'd be contending for any cy youngs. I think his ERA would be in the high 3's and he wouldn't go as deep into ballgames. The AL East was really getting good at getting his pitch count up and taking advantage as he tired later in games.

 

He'd still be a good pitcher, but i think the NL has made a big difference. Just look at Bronson Arroyo.

 

I think that everybody is forgetting, that Pedro in 04 did have a 3.90 Era, but he had a dreadfull September, heading into the month his Era was at like 3.30, still high, but I think it was just a bad year, in 03 he led the leauge with a 2.22 Era

[Ray10]

He's still a good pitcher but he's not vintage Pedro anymore. He was much better when he was with the Sox. He may be 5-0 this year but he hasn't one a start in what his last three starts or something. I'm not saying that he isn't good he just isn't the Pedro of the Red Sox days.

[a700hitter]

He's still a good pitcher but he's not vintage Pedro anymore. He was much better when he was with the Sox. He may be 5-0 this year but he hasn't one a start in what his last three starts or something. I'm not saying that he isn't good he just isn't the Pedro of the Red Sox days.

No pitcher in history could compare to the Pedro from 1998 to 2000. He may not be the old Pedro, but he is still great.

[redsoxrules]

He's still a good pitcher but he's not vintage Pedro anymore. He was much better when he was with the Sox. He may be 5-0 this year but he hasn't one a start in what his last three starts or something. I'm not saying that he isn't good he just isn't the Pedro of the Red Sox days.

 

well the reason he hasent won a start in his last 4 start is because wagner blew 2 of them

[ahhchon]

He's still a good pitcher but he's not vintage Pedro anymore. He was much better when he was with the Sox. He may be 5-0 this year but he hasn't one a start in what his last three starts or something. I'm not saying that he isn't good he just isn't the Pedro of the Red Sox days.

 

are you mentally retarded?

 

i'm not sure if you even warrant a reply. of course the guy is not pedro of the old days, no one is and ever will be. the closest thing we've seen to pedro of his old days was santana in the 2nd half of his cy season, that's the closest thing.

 

pedro is pitching fantastic. if you have actually watched more than 1 mets game (probably the one the other day when wagner blew the game against NYY) you would see that pedro is a different pitcher.

 

john

[ahhchon]

Nolan Ryan says Hello.

 

nolan ryan is vastly overrated. his highest era+ was 142.. that's lower than pedro's career average which is 166.

 

ryan would not have put up the numbers he did if he pitched during the steroid era. most of the big bats today are fastball hitters and at the speed he was throwing he would have given up more walks and more dingers.

 

john

[CrespoBlows]

Does ERA+ factor in what their numbers would be like if they threw every 5th day? Granted, Pedro is one of the greatest pitchers of all time, but you have to think how much signifigantly lower Bob Gibson's, or Walter Johnson's ERA's would have been had they thrown every fifth day as opposed to throwing every other day.

[SuperManny]

Either way Pedro would have been a better sign than Tek at this point I believe. Tek was great last year but is hitting awful this year so far and theres still two more years left. Tek is getting up there for a catcher too. Can you imagine a rotation including Pedro, Schilling, and Beckett?

 

Wagner also blew a win for him against the Yanks.

[a700hitter]

Does ERA+ factor in what their numbers would be like if they threw every 5th day? Granted, Pedro is one of the greatest pitchers of all time, but you have to think how much signifigantly lower Bob Gibson's, or Walter Johnson's ERA's would have been had they thrown every fifth day as opposed to throwing every other day.

If all the pitchers from that ERA were in 5 man rotations and we assume that it would have lowered their ERA's, we don't know what effect that would have had on league ERA, because inferior pitchers would have been forced into the #5 hole. We can only go by the stats that are available and adjust them accordingly. Using what we have, Pedro is clearly the greatest pitcher in the last 40 years and probably of all-time.

[BoSox Rule]

Does ERA+ factor in what their numbers would be like if they threw every 5th day? Granted, Pedro is one of the greatest pitchers of all time, but you have to think how much signifigantly lower Bob Gibson's, or Walter Johnson's ERA's would have been had they thrown every fifth day as opposed to throwing every other day.

When did Bob Gibson pitch every other day? Hell, when did Walter Johnson throw every other day?

[CrespoBlows]

When did Bob Gibson pitch every other day? Hell, when did Walter Johnson throw every other day?

 

Exaggeration

 

Johnson threw 5,914.3 IP in his career. Pedro won't even come remotely close to touching that. One can only assume that Walter Johnson threw more often than Pedro Martinez, no? And, you do agree that a pitcher's pitches are better when they have more time to recoup from their previous start.

 

we don't know what effect that would have had on league ERA, because inferior pitchers would have been forced into the #5 hole.

 

That's the stat that makes me think Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher of all time. Martinez has a difference of 1.79 when it comes to his ERA and the league ERA. Johnson's is only 1.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that Walter Johnson's ERA+ may have risen had he pitched every 5th day, as opposed to every 4th or 3rd day.

[a700hitter]

That's the stat that makes me think Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher of all time. Martinez has a difference of 1.79 when it comes to his ERA and the league ERA. Johnson's is only 1.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that Walter Johnson's ERA+ may have risen had he pitched every 5th day, as opposed to every 4th or 3rd day.

How much of Johnson's career was during the dead-ball era? That probably helped his stat line.

[rician blast]

Exaggeration

 

Johnson threw 5,914.3 IP in his career. Pedro won't even come remotely close to touching that. One can only assume that Walter Johnson threw more often than Pedro Martinez, no? And, you do agree that a pitcher's pitches are better when they have more time to recoup from their previous start.

 

 

 

That's the stat that makes me think Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher of all time. Martinez has a difference of 1.79 when it comes to his ERA and the league ERA. Johnson's is only 1.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that Walter Johnson's ERA+ may have risen had he pitched every 5th day, as opposed to every 4th or 3rd day.

 

different times, different game.

 

would Johnson or Young or Mathewson or anyone else stack up against these players...who are bigger, stronger, faster, have incredibl;e training routines and technology to boot?

 

Or let's just go back to Koufax and Marichal and Gibson, and roll on to Palmer, Sutton, Seaver, Carlton....the game has changed a lot since THEY have been gone, too, who knows how they'd perform now.

[CrespoBlows]

How much of Johnson's career was during the dead-ball era? That probably helped his stat line.

 

Probably. That's why I used the League ERA stat to assert Pedro's domiance.

 

I still think that Pedro is the greatest pitcher of all time, but Johnson is not too far behind.

 

Hypothetical question. What if Pedro Martinez threw in the dead ball era? Would he be more dominant, or would he succumb to an injury as a result of throwing 150 pitches per start?

[ahhchon]

he wouldn't need 150 pitches per start. if pedro pitched in the dead ball era they would rename the categories k/9 to pedro martinez. he wouldn't have needed 110 pitches let alone 150.

 

john

[CrespoBlows]

he wouldn't need 150 pitches per start. if pedro pitched in the dead ball era they would rename the categories k/9 to pedro martinez. he wouldn't have needed 110 pitches let alone 150.

 

john

 

I don't understand how you can say that.

 

The dead ball era placed a greater emphasis on contact. Players didn't strikeout nearly as much as they do nowadays.

 

Even if Pedro didn't need to throw 110 pitches, he still has the daunting task of firing 350 innings in a season.

 

Then again, it's impossible to compare the two eras.

[Mr Crunchy]

based on the above sentiment he wouldve been gone forever in 99 when he 1st hurt his shoulder

they didnt treat these guys as a commodity as they do now

the sox invested 90M in martinez in 97

they werent about to let him cook his arm after 2 years and 60 million left on his deal

 

incomparable...you just cant compare the 2 eras

 

those guys went both ends of double headers for gods sake

[redsoxrules]

Pedro loses his first game of the season , but he pitched great again 7IP 5H 2ER 0BB 10K

the mets just cant seem to find a win wen he is pitching , he should at least have 8 wins allready , they just cant seem to score any runs for him

[kreinbihl34]

I don't understand how you can say that.

 

The dead ball era placed a greater emphasis on contact. Players didn't strikeout nearly as much as they do nowadays.

 

Even if Pedro didn't need to throw 110 pitches, he still has the daunting task of firing 350 innings in a season.

 

Then again, it's impossible to compare the two eras.

 

But also almost none of the pitcher threw a 98mph fastball like Pedro did. But nonetheless its worthless talking about because we'll never know.

[CrespoBlows]

But also almost none of the pitcher threw a 98mph fastball like Pedro did. But nonetheless its worthless talking about because we'll never know.

 

That is an incorrect statement.

 

Walter Johnson threw harder then Pedro Martinez did.

[CrespoBlows]

Weapon of Mass Pena!

[ImissPedro]

I miss Pedro

[ImissPedro]

Shame on the organization for not doing what they could to get him back

[BoSox Rule]

That is an incorrect statement.

 

Walter Johnson threw harder then Pedro Martinez did.

That is almost impossible. Best case scenario is he threw as hard, but I wouldn't put too much money on that bet considering he was pitching in the early 1900's with a dead ball.

[CrespoBlows]

That is almost impossible. Best case scenario is he threw as hard, but I wouldn't put too much money on that bet considering he was pitching in the early 1900's with a dead ball.

 

No, it isn't.

 

Johnson had a lot of arm strength. Therefore, it is entirely possible that Johnson could throw a fastball harder then Pedro did.

 

Then again, it's frivolous arguing. Pedro and Johnson both had cannons for arms and could get it up to 98 mph.

[Mr Crunchy]

pedro wouldnt be the same guy in the al

he got his clock cleaned in los angeles the other evening

his fast ball was topping out at 89

he really labored

[ImissPedro]

He makes it to 300 wins by age 40 easily if he keeps it going, he 34 now and at 203. I don't forsee him pitching past the end of his tenure with the Mets but you never know. Minaya was smart to grab him up when he could, Theo was an idiot to let him go. And the fastball isn't as electric as it was before he tore the rotater cuff, he still hits 96 every now and then. Good pitching is hard to find

[ImissPedro]

pedro wouldnt be the same guy in the al

he got his clock cleaned in los angeles the other evening

his fast ball was topping out at 89

he really labored

 

 

every has a bad day at the office now and then

[redsoxrules]

pedro wouldnt be the same guy in the al

he got his clock cleaned in los angeles the other evening

his fast ball was topping out at 89

he really labored

 

 

i guess you havent seen his other starts this year cause he's only had 2 bad outing this year