Matt Clement thread...

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Clement is awful, its unaccpetable for this team to contiune to let him pitch. I would rather watch Lester learn his way on the Major League seen, rather than watch Clement get bombed every frigging start

 

My thoughts exactly so instead of posting I will just agree. I would love for the Red Sox to just throw away Clement and give the kids a shot. I honestly think Jon Lester could hold up better than a 6.00+ ERA.

[a700hitter]

My thoughts exactly so instead of posting I will just agree. I would love for the Red Sox to just throw away Clement and give the kids a shot. I honestly think Jon Lester could hold up better than a 6.00+ ERA.

I don't agree that the FO should put the fate of a team with a $120+ million payroll in the hands of an untested kid who got beat up pretty bad in ST. Putting that kind of pressure on the kid would be extremely unfair, and it could break him. It would also be unfair to the paying fans that deserve to see polished major leaguers and not a parade of minor league kids. If this pitching staff is broken, the FO needs to get Clemens or make another deal for a bona fide major league pitcher. They can't just throw the kids in the pool hoping they can swim. This franchise does not have that luxury. KC might, but Boston does not.

[RoyNHSox]

I don't agree that the FO should put the fate of a team with a $120+ million payroll in the hands of an untested kid who got beat up pretty bad in ST. Putting that kind of pressure on the kid would be extremely unfair, and it could break him. It would also be unfair to the paying fans that deserve to see polished major leaguers and not a parade of minor league kids. If this pitching staff is broken, the FO needs to get Clemens or make another deal for a bona fide major league pitcher. They can't just throw the kids in the pool hoping they can swim. This franchise does not have that luxury. KC might, but Boston does not.

 

Your points are right on!

 

Isn't throwing an unproven prospect out on the mound just as much, if not more, of a gamble as trotting Clement out there every 5 days? Tito and the FO don't want the Cla Meredith redux.

[jsinger121]

Cla Meredith was a mistake and Jon Lester is much more advanced than Meredith ever was when he was brought up. The market is so thin on pitching right now that the Red Sox will not overpay for average pitchers. I have a belief the problem will have to be solved in house.

[a700hitter]

Cla Meredith was a mistake and Jon Lester is much more advanced than Meredith ever was when he was brought up. The market is so thin on pitching right now that the Red Sox will not overpay for average pitchers. I have a belief the problem will have to be solved in house.

That the Sox will not overpay for pitching help is just conjecture on your part. That their problems will be solved in house is your hope, because there is nothing upon which to base such a belief. IMO they'd be insane not to get a 24-year old Willis if it costs them a couple of prospects. If you think Lester is a jewel, they should package some other guys. Frankly, I don't think there is anything so exceptional about him other than his top-prospect status. But what do I know. I saw nothing exceptional in Guidry either. Then again, he didn't make it to the majors until age 27 or 28. Lester is not ready for the jump, but if he can contribute to a World Championship in '06 by helping us land a stud like Willis, I say: do it.

 

BTW Isn't Meredith currently in the majors?

[CrespoBlows]

I don't agree that the FO should put the fate of a team with a $120+ million payroll in the hands of an untested kid who got beat up pretty bad in ST. Putting that kind of pressure on the kid would be extremely unfair, and it could break him. It would also be unfair to the paying fans that deserve to see polished major leaguers and not a parade of minor league kids. If this pitching staff is broken, the FO needs to get Clemens or make another deal for a bona fide major league pitcher. They can't just throw the kids in the pool hoping they can swim. This franchise does not have that luxury. KC might, but Boston does not.

 

I disagree

 

The Red Sox wouldn't be betting their season on Jon Lester. He'd be asked to be the 5th starter, behind Wakefield and Wells. The Red Sox probably only expect him to put up a 4.50 ERA while throwing about five innings per start. That's not monumental pressure.

 

Your second point couldn't be further from the truth. The Boston Red Sox are a quality organization. They are loaded with players of elite quality. Just because one of those players happen to be a rookie, the Red Sox are being unfair by parading around a bunch of minor leaguers? That makes no sense. If the minor league pitchers happen to be better than the ones you currently have on the big league club, why not bring them up? If they fail, they can go back to Pawtucket. I don't buy the argument that it will destroy them. If they couldn't handle defeat a first time, what makes you think they were going to be successful major leaguers? This isn't David Clyde we're talking about.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Your points are right on!

 

Isn't throwing an unproven prospect out on the mound just as much, if not more, of a gamble as trotting Clement out there every 5 days? Tito and the FO don't want the Cla Meredith redux.

 

Unproven.....ok.....how do you become a proven prospect?? Following that philosophy these kids will never play. At one time Curt Schilliing, Josh Beckett, Jonathan Papelbon, David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez......EVERYONE was unproven.

 

Could Jon Lester pull a Cla Meredith?? Sure he could.....but didn't Matt Clement just post numbers last night worse than any game Cla Meredith has pitched?? Any player can have a bad game...even the so called "proven" veterans.

 

Did Jon Lester struggle in spring training?? Yes he did but so did Josh Beckett in his first game. Jonathan Papelbon struggled in both spring trainings (2005, 2006). Its spring training....you can't base anything around it. You can base his performance in the minors however. Matt Clement is not the answer and I'm unimpressed by those who are happy with the status quo. I would like a rotation full of top pitchers....the White Sox had it last season...why can't we have it this season?

[a700hitter]

Unproven.....ok.....how do you become a proven prospect?? Following that philosophy these kids will never play. At one time Curt Schilliing, Josh Beckett, Jonathan Papelbon, David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez......EVERYONE was unproven.

You work them in slowly at the major league level. You don't throw them into a rotation fighting for1st place in the middle of the season.

 

Could Jon Lester pull a Cla Meredith?? Sure he could.....but didn't Matt Clement just post numbers last night worse than any game Cla Meredith has pitched?? Any player can have a bad game...even the so called "proven" veterans.

A debut like Meredith had can destroy a pitcher's confidence and ruin his development. You want to risk that with Lester?

 

Did Jon Lester struggle in spring training?? Yes he did but so did Josh Beckett in his first game. Jonathan Papelbon struggled in both spring trainings (2005, 2006). Its spring training....you can't base anything around it. You can base his performance in the minors however.

Lester didn't merely struggle in ST. He was awful. Every one of his outings was very bad. Papelbon hit some rough spots, but he also showed flashes of dominance. It is minor league stats that mean nothing. He has to prove that he can get out major league hitters before he is handed a rotation spot. That would mean going to the pen first.

[a700hitter]

The Red Sox wouldn't be betting their season on Jon Lester. He'd be asked to be the 5th starter, behind Wakefield and Wells. The Red Sox probably only expect him to put up a 4.50 ERA while throwing about five innings per start. That's not monumental pressure.

I hope you are joking. Poor 24 year old WMP is getting crucified because he didn't run home on a wild pitch. There is n't much tolerance in this town for failure, and Lester's every outing would be examined under a microscope. No pressure? or do you think 5 innings against major league hitting is no big deal?

 

If the minor league pitchers happen to be better than the ones you currently have on the big league club, why not bring them up? If they fail, they can go back to Pawtucket. I don't buy the argument that it will destroy them. If they couldn't handle defeat a first time, what makes you think they were going to be successful major leaguers? This isn't David Clyde we're talking about.

A young pitcher's psyche can be fragile. Even the veteran players need the team shrink. Finally, until these young guns do it at the major league level, you have no basis to say that they are better than the pitchers on the major league staff.

[Mr Crunchy]

david clyde??

thats the 50.00 trivia question of the day

 

good for you man

you know the game a bit eh

 

as far as lester being groomed along slowly

didnt we throw papel into the fire last year on a sunday afternoon start against the twins?

by the end of the season he was our best pitcher.

 

with wake being awful the other nite and the lenny d experience coming unglued and matty boy sucking as bad as he has we now have holes that need to be filled.

today they need to be filled,not next month

[rician blast]

I can see merit in both sides of the "bring up the kids" dilemma. There is another factor here, and it goes beyond what will happen to the individual pitcher and his psyche.

 

The front office needs to be very careful that whatever they do with Lester or any other youngster on the farm doesn't diminish the players perceived value.

 

A poor performance or two or three from a recent call-up sometimes is more damaging to the organization, in terms of diminished value, than the psyche of the pitcher.

[CrespoBlows]

I hope you are joking. Poor 24 year old WMP is getting crucified because he didn't run home on a wild pitch. There is n't much tolerance in this town for failure, and Lester's every outing would be examined under a microscope. No pressure? or do you think 5 innings against major league hitting is no big deal?

 

Really? Where? Where is Wily Mo Pena getting crucified? I think everyone pinned that loss on Clement, Pena has been spared by the Boston media.

 

Lester has extraordinary amount of talent. He probably could pitch five solid innings against another big league club. If he can post a 4.50 ERA, that would be terrific. No one is expecting him to be a savior.

 

I'm not saying we should exile Clement right now, but if he has a couple of more bad starts, then why not go for Lester? The Marlins won't trade Willis to us, and Barry Zito is an impending free agent. (though if we could get Zito and sign him long term, I'd pull the trigger) There isn't really another option out there, except Clemens.

 

Finally, until these young guns do it at the major league level, you have no basis to say that they are better than the pitchers on the major league staff.

 

When are they going to get the opportunity if the Red Sox organization has the same sentiment as you do?

 

Interesting tidbit. Out of 100 eligible MLB pitchers for ERA, Matt Clement ranks 96th. You're telling me that Lester couldn't do better than that?

[Mr Crunchy]

there will be some oppurtunity come july

the fins will move willis if the price is right,im just not sure hes the man for us

i doubt clemens will come here

the cubs have some pitching that they may want to shed as they have no hope and are paying big money for no performance

sanfrans jason schmidt(ANYONE KNOW HIS CONTRACT SITUATION?) is a guy that'd look pretty good down the stretch and if theyre not in the hunt he may be had

 

when coco comes back

we'll have pena available to deal im pretty sure as well as the young arms to entice some teams into playing lets make a deal with us come july

[rician blast]

hate to say I told you so, so I won't...well not exactly...

 

BUT...

 

I was on record (somewhere) as being extremely dissapointed in the Arroyo trade. Christ I'd like to have had the luxury of him being around....not that HE is a savior, but at least he'd throw friggin strikes, albeit with some HBPs.

 

Ya can never have enough pitching...and as bad as Sox fans are bashing the Yanks staff, the Sox have holes too.

[Mr Crunchy]

you never trade pitching,especially rubber arms who can give you 200 innings,150ks and 15wins per with an era under 4.5 in the american league while being very affordable in the process

plus

that kid had balls of steele.

pena surely helped us and hit fairly well while he was playing ever day but arroyo on the other hand is marching towards a cy young and hes the ace of a sucky cinci staff that scores a s*** load of runs.....

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

You work them in slowly at the major league level. You don't throw them into a rotation fighting for1st place in the middle of the season.

 

I'm not sure if you noticed but...the Red Sox are always fighting for 1st so it doesn't matter when you bring him up. Did we work Papelbon in slowly or did he show up toward the end of the season when things were getting tight?

 

A debut like Meredith had can destroy a pitcher's confidence and ruin his development. You want to risk that with Lester?

 

Like Crespoblows said...if he can't rebound from a tough game then he has a soft confidence and you don't want a pitcher like that. He had some tough early outtings in AAA and he has bounced back...I wouldn't worry so much. Not to mention you can't compare Meredith to Lester...thats just silly.

 

Lester didn't merely struggle in ST. He was awful. Every one of his outings was very bad. Papelbon hit some rough spots, but he also showed flashes of dominance. It is minor league stats that mean nothing. He has to prove that he can get out major league hitters before he is handed a rotation spot. That would mean going to the pen first.

 

Jon Lester is not going to the bullpen. He has never worked out of the bullpen and that would screw him up more than promoting him to the Red Sox...so bad idea. Last season Jon Lester was on track with Papelbon and was the top pitcher in AA. Now he is throwing great game after great game in AAA....what more do you want?? Waiting for a complete game no hitter in Pawtucket?? I'm not sure what signs you or any other doubters are looking for....but I'll say this....

 

I saw plenty of signs from Matt Clement this year that shows he should not be on the Red Sox rotation. If a player with a 6.00+ ERA can have a spot on the rotation its not such a sacred position is it?? Lenny DiNardo was even given a spot for god sakes so lets not make it into something you have to earn to a great degree.

[mtbykr]

Really? Where? Where is Wily Mo Pena getting crucified? I think everyone pinned that loss on Clement, Pena has been spared by the Boston media.

 

Lester has extraordinary amount of talent. He probably could pitch five solid innings against another big league club. If he can post a 4.50 ERA, that would be terrific. No one is expecting him to be a savior.

 

I'm not saying we should exile Clement right now, but if he has a couple of more bad starts, then why not go for Lester? The Marlins won't trade Willis to us, and Barry Zito is an impending free agent. (though if we could get Zito and sign him long term, I'd pull the trigger) There isn't really another option out there, except Clemens.

 

 

 

When are they going to get the opportunity if the Red Sox organization has the same sentiment as you do?

 

Interesting tidbit. Out of 100 eligible MLB pitchers for ERA, Matt Clement ranks 96th. You're telling me that Lester couldn't do better than that?

 

I wouldn't. Zito is a shell of his former self and you also have to remember we will be dealing with bean---so he will want way too much! Just not gonna happen!

[Cocos Disciples]

yeah, to me, zitos done. what about carlos zambrano of the cubs, or a short term option, livan hernandez of the nationals?

[jsinger121]

yeah' date=' to me, zitos done. what about carlos zambrano of the cubs, or a short term option, livan hernandez of the nationals?[/quote']

 

Cubs won't trade Zambrano and Livan has knee problems and is also a shell of his former self.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

The names I have heard thus far include: Dontrelle Willis, Jason Schmidt, Barry Zito, Mark Prior, Oliver Perez, Livan Hernandez. Any others??

 

Out of those names the one that sticks out is Mark Prior for a couple reasons. First, it was only a couple years ago he was completely dominating everyone. He put up huge numbers and was fantastic in the postseason for the Cubs. Second, his price is down because of his shoulder injury. I'm not sure how bad the injury is but its something to look into. If there was ever a time to look into Mark Prior's availablility the time is now.

 

I guess Jason Schmidt is intriguing as well but I have a feeling the Giants would want the world for him since they aren't out of the running and probably won't be cause that division is lame. From watching him his fastball has the same life it had before he was hurt.

[CrespoBlows]

I wouldn't. Zito is a shell of his former self and you also have to remember we will be dealing with bean---so he will want way too much! Just not gonna happen!

 

yeah' date=' to me, zitos done. what about carlos zambrano of the cubs, or a short term option, livan hernandez of the nationals?[/quote']

 

I knew this would be controversial.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/player_locator_results.jsp?playerLocator=Zito

 

Zito's been pretty damn good. His ERA for the month of May is 0.80. That being said, I doubt the Red Sox land Zito. I should have specified that I would trade Lester straight up for Zito. (Zito's only 28)

 

EDIT* The A's actually have to fall out of the playoff race. Which won't happen.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I wouldn't go as far as saying Barry Zito is done. He hasn't lived up to the Cy Young numbers but its not like he is a bad pitcher. As for trading Jon Lester...eh I'd really like to give Lester a chance and see what he can do.

 

Question...as a lefty with a low to mid 90s fastball, a cutter, changeup, and curveball....are we talking about Scott Kazmir? Like Scott Kazmir....Lester walks a fair amount of batters but has the stuff to strikeout a bunch as well. They sound real similar...I've seen plenty of Kazmir but only two outtings of Lester....anyone else think there is a possible comparison?

[CrespoBlows]

Kazmir's a more of a power fastball/slider combo. Lester's more of a fastball/cutter/curveball kind of pitcher.

 

I would say he's more of a Andy Pettitte/Mark Mulder kind of pitcher. But, since soxprospects.com already said that, I'll go with Chris Capuano. Both pitches have similar stuff, and similar strikeout numbers. I assume that Lester will break out earlier then Capuano will.

[a700hitter]

Really? Where? Where is Wily Mo Pena getting crucified? I think everyone pinned that loss on Clement, Pena has been spared by the Boston media.

The guys on WEEI lit into him pretty good this morning. Maybe you should have listened.

 

Lester has extraordinary amount of talent. He probably could pitch five solid innings against another big league club. If he can post a 4.50 ERA, that would be terrific. No one is expecting him to be a savior.

This would be a real long shot. The average league ERA is around 4.50. You expect this kid to come out of the minors, with very little seasoning and no history of being able to get out major league hitters, and you expect him to take a turn every fifth day and pitch to the average league ERA. If they though this was realistic, the FO would have him up with the big team already.

 

I'm not saying we should exile Clement right now, but if he has a couple of more bad starts, then why not go for Lester? The Marlins won't trade Willis to us, and Barry Zito is an impending free agent. (though if we could get Zito and sign him long term, I'd pull the trigger) There isn't really another option out there, except Clemens.

It's surprising that you discount any chance of getting Willis. At this time last year, did you think they could land Beckett. Getting Willis is no more unlikely.

 

Interesting tidbit. Out of 100 eligible MLB pitchers for ERA, Matt Clement ranks 96th. You're telling me that Lester couldn't do better than that?

...and you are basing this conclusion on what evidence. Believe it or not, he could do worse.

[jsinger121]

Anyone who listens to those clowns D&C in the morning knows they light up anyone who does bad. The Sox don't have the ammo to get Willis without giving up 3 top prospects which would include giving up Hansen and Lester and one other and thats not happening. All I hear is Willis that and Willis this from you. Hes not worth cleaning out the farm system for. But Mr. Duquette its all about going for it all in 2006 isn't it so why not trade all our prospects for a title this year.

[a700hitter]

I'm not sure if you noticed but...the Red Sox are always fighting for 1st so it doesn't matter when you bring him up.

You have been spoiled, and you must be very young.

Did we work Papelbon in slowly or did he show up toward the end of the season when things were getting tight?

Papelbon is 3 years older than Lester, and he was not slotted into a regular rotation turn. He was worked in from the bullpen, and he wasn't the closer. So, yes, he was worked in slowly.

Not to mention you can't compare Meredith to Lester...thats just silly.

And why is this silly? Red Sox management felt that Meredith had the mental toughness and attitude to handle the big stage. Why would Lester handle it any better?

Jon Lester is not going to the bullpen. He has never worked out of the bullpen and that would screw him up more than promoting him to the Red Sox...so bad idea.

If he can't work out of the pen, we won't see him with the Sox until the double headers start piling up in July. He'll probably get a call for one of those, but unless he shoots out the lights, he'll be taking the train to Pawtucket the next morning.

[pudge]

Matt clement is a freaking head case with no heart or balls for that matter .Im done watching that stiff pitch.

[Beckett95]

i cant wait to hear...

 

"Matt Clement has been placed on the DL"

 

the guy is a joke who is afraid to pitch. he looks so scared out there on the mound. he needs to go back to the NL

[CrespoBlows]

The guys on WEEI lit into him pretty good this morning. Maybe you should have listened.

 

I only caught the last hour, and they were laying into Clement pretty hard. I must have missed the brunt of the assault. Dale and Holley were much more sympathetic toward Pena, as they layed into Clement as well.

 

This would be a real long shot. The average league ERA is around 4.50. You expect this kid to come out of the minors, with very little seasoning and no history of being able to get out major league hitters, and you expect him to take a turn every fifth day and pitch to the average league ERA. If they though this was realistic, the FO would have him up with the big team already.

 

You act as if no rookie has ever pitched well at the ML level.

 

I think the FO would have tried Lester had Clement's salary not been an issue. That being said, I'm not advocating bringing up Lester right now. I am, however, saying that if Clement continues to struggle that Jon Lester should be given a chance by July 1st.

 

It's surprising that you discount any chance of getting Willis. At this time last year, did you think they could land Beckett. Getting Willis is no more unlikely.

 

Different situation right now. The Marlins were in the admist of a massive fire sale. I would say I was surprised because I had heard nothing until the trade was agreed upon.

 

The Marlins, this time want more in return. They want two position prospects, and one pitching prospect. The Red Sox, do not have the hitters the Marlins would want. The D-Backs, or Dodgers could easily outbid us.

 

.and you are basing this conclusion on what evidence. Believe it or not, he could do worse.

 

Jon Lester has put up gawdy strikeout numbers, allows less than a hit an inning, has good control, and has a K/BB ratio of about three. Plus, he was outstanding stuff.

 

Those usually equate to Major League success.

[a700hitter]

You act as if no rookie has ever pitched well at the ML level.

It has been done, but it is rare for a 22yr old to step into a starting rotation. Many that do experience a temporary or permanent burn out

Different situation right now. The Marlins were in the admist of a massive fire sale. I would say I was surprised because I had heard nothing until the trade was agreed upon.

 

The Marlins, this time want more in return. They want two position prospects, and one pitching prospect. The Red Sox, do not have the hitters the Marlins would want. The D-Backs, or Dodgers could easily outbid us.

We have no solid evidence what the Marlins were asking for Beckett or what they will settle for for Willis.

Jon Lester has put up gawdy strikeout numbers, allows less than a hit an inning, has good control, and has a K/BB ratio of about three. Plus, he was outstanding stuff.

 

Those usually equate to Major League success.

For everyone that makes it many more don't.

 

If the FO doen't throw its hat into the ring to get a Schmidt, Willis or Clemens and the Yankees get one or more of them and the sox bring up a kid that doesn't pan out, the result could be the Yankees moving deep into the post-season and the Red Sox going home. And if the kid doesn't make it big and Willis has few big years with the Yankees, the Sox FO will be a laughing stock for passing on a bona fide major league pitcher.