Matt Clement thread...

[SCM33]

It's obvious he is not the same guy who was lights out before the ASB last season. It is painful to watch him walk the world and miss Teks traget by 3 feet. I would rather watch David Wells get bombed all over the park than watch Matt Clement fall behind every single f***in batter he faces. I am so tired of his fragile phsyche.

 

So what can we do? Well, we can trade him.

 

Well how can we trade him, who the hell wants our garbage?

 

Ill tell you, we have to take someone elses garbage to get rid of him. My friend made a suggestion the other day which made a lot of sense. Ready for this? Derek Lowe. Why not bring the guy back? He was so awful a few years back because he had one of the worst fielding infields in all of baseball. This year, we have solid defense all the way around the diamond. Why not bring him in here and watch him roll up 20 groundballs a game.

 

He is a proven big game winner, he has pitched here, and while he was perceived as weak, he beat the Yankees in the biggest comeback in sports history. He also has the ability to be a top of the line type pitcher as he has shown that iin the past whether it was racking up 42 saves or winning 21 games and tossing a no-no.

 

Why not? What has Clement done in the past year to merit a free pass in the rotation? I think LA would like to unload Lowe just as much as we would be willing to unload Clement.

 

Thoughts or opinions?

[Cocos Disciples]

If we can trade Clement for something that would help us now, that would be good, but I don't think it really helps us to trade him for prospects. Therefore, that trade would make a little sense, but I don't see it happening anyway.

[ORS]

2005 - 3.61 ERA, 12-15

2006 - 2.98 ERA, 1-2

 

D-Lowe is actually pitching fairly well in LA, he's just not winning games because he's had little run support. I don't think the Dodgers view him as garbage, so I think this is very unlikely to happen.

 

I can't stand watching Clement's starts, but I don't see a fix on the horizon.

[SCM33]

Nobody will give us prospects for him....We have to trade crap for crap....the thing is, the crap we got in return (Lowe) COULD possibly benefit us more than the crap we are giving up (Clement).

 

I know it probably wouldnt happen, but technically, the trade could very well work for both sides. The money is pretty equal. Similar ages, similar seasons last year. Clement seems to do well when he has a change of scenery, its just that the effect of the change of scenery runs out at about the ASB every seasson.

 

This year he has been flat out awful, and he seems pretty hopeless. People arent gunna swing at the garbage hes throwing, and when he has to throw a strike, he cant. He cant even throw a straight two seam fastball, and while for some pitchers thats great, its not so great for Clement because everyhing he throws moves.......way outta the strike zone.

[SCM33]

2005 - 3.61 ERA, 12-15

2006 - 2.98 ERA, 1-2

 

D-Lowe is actually pitching fairly well in LA, he's just not winning games because he's had little run support. I don't think the Dodgers view him as garbage, so I think this is very unlikely to happen.

 

I can't stand watching Clement's starts, but I don't see a fix on the horizon.

 

 

Agreed, you wouldnt call him crap so far this season, but they were disappointed in him last season, and him and Clement had similar seasons.

[ORS]

What about Radke? He's off to a pretty s***ing start, but he's been very consistent over his career. Even if he continues to struggle, he can't be much worse than Clement has been, and he'll do it with far fewer walks. He's a match with Clement in terms of money owed this year, with the only difference being that he's a FA after this year while Clement is a FA after 2007.

 

Would the Twins be interested in Clement for a year and a half? Probably not at his salary, so they may need to subsidise the deal to get it done.

[RedSoxRooter]

I love DLowe, but the man's got a lot of problems. It's too bad, he's got great stuff.

 

Clement has great stuff too, but he just can't pull it together for one decent start. He sucked tonight and it had nothing to do with the weather. It was typical Clement, just the game was a 6 instead of 9 inning game.

[mtbykr]

Well i am not as down on clement as everyone else---it just seems like this guy gets the shaft all the time. He gets pushed back a long time so we can line up who we want for the yank series--and then he has to pitch on a night like tonight! I would be pissed if i were him.

 

As far as lowe goes, i always like him and wished he wouldn't have left. One thing you can say about D-Lowe though---he knows how to pitch in big games! With that said there is no way this FO brings him back here!

[jsinger121]

DLowe has never had arm problems at all and the sox gave up on him because of his off the field problems. The man could pitch in Boston though and Clement can't. End of story

[jards]

W L IP K ERA WHIP

Derek Lowe 1 2 51.1 26 2.98 1.13

Brad Penny 3 1 47.1 33 2.66 1.23

Brett Tomko 4 1 43.0 28 2.93 1.16

Odalis Pérez 3 1 30.0 17 6.90 1.70

Jae Seo 1 2 33.0 24 6.00 1.55

 

We may consider DLowe a cheap pick up as a trade for Clement, but from these numbers I would think LA would think Lowe was about as good as they could hope for this season.

 

They won't be willingto give him up and pay more cash for a guy like Clement.

[TheRivernator]

you guys are funny. Derek Lowe is the ace of the dodgers staff. The dodgers are in the weak NL West and will likely be fighting for a playoff spot. Lowe is in the 2nd yr of a 4 yr contract paying him 9 mil a season. Lowe will NOT be traded. Also, he left on such bad terms with the sox that he'd demand a trade in the offseason, which he can do because any player traded in the middle of a multiyear deal can force a trade or become an FA after a season. Also, they would not take a scrap heap in Clement. That's like saying we could get Lowe for Wright, and btw, Wright and Clement may be about on the same level right now. You guys will audition #5 starters from now until Wells comes back in early june. The best one will battle with Clement and who knows, maybe clement gets dealt in a salary dump move. Clement is damaged goods right now, you wont get anything good in return, especially seeing as he has 10 mil coming to him next yr and a total of 9 mil this yr....

[redsoxrules]

Well i am not as down on clement as everyone else---it just seems like this guy gets the shaft all the time. He gets pushed back a long time so we can line up who we want for the yank series--and then he has to pitch on a night like tonight! I would be pissed if i were him.

 

As far as lowe goes, i always like him and wished he wouldn't have left. One thing you can say about D-Lowe though---he knows how to pitch in big games! With that said there is no way this FO brings him back here!

 

well the reason the guy gets shafted and pushed back on his start its cause he sucks, i would push him back on his start as many times possible during the season

[riverside sluggers]

If only Cincy wouldve taken Clement over Arroyo, but his high contract sold the deal that he would stay in Boston. I still dont see him lasting his 3 year contract here, shocked if he isnt traded before 07 season

[TheRivernator]

I think the sox are doing themselves a disservice by sticking with DiNardo. They should be auditioning Alvarez and Ginter before the 5 spot is swallowed up by the fat man. Clement may have about a 3-4 start leash, and if he falters, they wont know who to turn to. Paps is the closer, Hansen and Lester wont be ready to join the rotation (so it seems) and Ginter and Alvarez havent started once. Might as well start the auditions now, as almost anyone who watches the games can see that DiNardo isnt the answer.....

[ORS]

I think the sox are doing themselves a disservice by sticking with DiNardo. They should be auditioning Alvarez and Ginter before the 5 spot is swallowed up by the fat man. Clement may have about a 3-4 start leash, and if he falters, they wont know who to turn to. Paps is the closer, Hansen and Lester wont be ready to join the rotation (so it seems) and Ginter and Alvarez havent started once. Might as well start the auditions now, as almost anyone who watches the games can see that DiNardo isnt the answer.....

I agree with you on Alvarez and Ginter. They've pitched well enough, especially Abe, to get a look. Lester seems to have turned the corner on his rocky start, so he could be ready for a debut sooner rather than later.

[jsinger121]

I think the Red Sox will give Lester a chance over Alvarez for the pure fact that Alvarez is a soft tossing flyball pitcher while Lester is a strikeout pitcher.

[TheRivernator]

I agree with you on Alvarez and Ginter. They've pitched well enough, especially Abe, to get a look. Lester seems to have turned the corner on his rocky start, so he could be ready for a debut sooner rather than later.

 

Any GM who watched the lines from Lester got a little scare early in the yr. Enough so that Lester may have earned himself a year long pass to stay in the minors. He is your prime time, A#1 prospect who is going to be hyped to the hilt when he makes his debut. Better to do it at the start of a fresh season than when you have already established yourself in a dog fight with your hated rival. People are very forgiving in April, and if Lester came up and shat the bed a week into the yr, people would attribute it to him being young and not ready. His ensuing demotion would just be for his seasoning. If he is brought up lets say in June, and he stumbles, then the fan base could turn on him and consider the hype BS and potentially ruin him for good. It is a legit fear, although it likely is not what would happen. I see Lester finishing the yr in AAA this season with a september call-up to do a little lefty matchup duty at the end of the yr. I expect him to supplant Wells in your rotation for next yr and be with you the whole yr....

[ORS]

Any GM who watched the lines from Lester got a little scare early in the yr. Enough so that Lester may have earned himself a year long pass to stay in the minors. He is your prime time, A#1 prospect who is going to be hyped to the hilt when he makes his debut. Better to do it at the start of a fresh season than when you have already established yourself in a dog fight with your hated rival. People are very forgiving in April, and if Lester came up and shat the bed a week into the yr, people would attribute it to him being young and not ready. His ensuing demotion would just be for his seasoning. If he is brought up lets say in June, and he stumbles, then the fan base could turn on him and consider the hype BS and potentially ruin him for good. It is a legit fear, although it likely is not what would happen. I see Lester finishing the yr in AAA this season with a september call-up to do a little lefty matchup duty at the end of the yr. I expect him to supplant Wells in your rotation for next yr and be with you the whole yr....

Complete over analysis of a rather simple situation. If Clement and Wells/DiNardo/Ginter/Alvarez/Mickey Mouse are still struggling to provide quality innings in the 4 and 5 rotation slots, and Lester continues to pitch as good as he has the past two-weeks, then he should make his debut in the not too distant future. And, Lester was on a pretty tight leash in terms of pitch count and pitch arsenal, so I don't think his early stats were as alarming to the FO as you want them to be.

[TheRivernator]

2-4 4.05ERA 26.2IP 26H 29K 11BB 1.39WHIP

Nothing in these numbers says that he is pitching well. I know that record in the minors is garbage and to an extent ERA is as well. (This is the only time I say that ERA is NOT a good marker of how good a pitcher is). But, WHIP and BB/9IP are huge indicators, IMHO, of how a guy will do in the bigs. The kid has good stuff due to his 9+K/9IP ratio, but that WHIP will get him killed in the bigs. He isnt ready now, and hence what is the problem with allowing him to stay in the minors for the rest of the yr?

[jsinger121]

Riv I have talked to people that went to his last start in Pawtucket and they say he absolutely dominated in his 6 innings of work. He had an explosive fastball down there. Those numbers a bunch of crap when the FO had him on leash in April. But you and your typical yankee bias can't overlook that can you.

[riverside sluggers]

Riv I have talked to people that went to his last start in Pawtucket and they say he absolutely dominated in his 6 innings of work. He had an explosive fastball down there. Those numbers a bunch of crap when the FO had him on leash in April. But you and your typical yankee bias can't overlook that can you.

 

He's just passing by the limited pitch count as an "excuse". Even though the Sox talked about it openly during spring training on what their plan is for Lester. Dont bother talking about his past several good starts because they still factor into his bad start to the season

[TheRivernator]

Riv I have talked to people that went to his last start in Pawtucket and they say he absolutely dominated in his 6 innings of work. He had an explosive fastball down there. Those numbers a bunch of crap when the FO had him on leash in April. But you and your typical yankee bias can't overlook that can you.

 

Its a body of work thing jsinger. A pitcher can come up and dominate in one game, but how can they sustain it. You arent looking for a flash in the pan, you are looking for the next great lefty pitcher. I could say the same thing about Phil Hughes, who struggled in start #1 in AA then dominated in start #2. I want to see what he can do after 10 starts and see trends, so one game or a few games for that matter doesnt really matter. I know that sounds rather contradictory to the point I made about Lester, but to this point, his #s are all we have. I have no doubts that he'll lower those numbers and by the end of the yr, Lester will likely be one of the best pitchers in AAA, but right now he isnt. Give him time is all I am saying, he might be ready, he might not be. But wouldnt you rather have him when you know he is ready?

[jsinger121]

And I am saying that the way he has pitched lately he will not need all season to get ready that he could be in Boston in July or August but since you want to look at the numbers all the time you think he can't make it to boston by then.

[ORS]

2-4 4.05ERA 26.2IP 26H 29K 11BB 1.39WHIP

Nothing in these numbers says that he is pitching well. I know that record in the minors is garbage and to an extent ERA is as well. (This is the only time I say that ERA is NOT a good marker of how good a pitcher is). But, WHIP and BB/9IP are huge indicators, IMHO, of how a guy will do in the bigs. The kid has good stuff due to his 9+K/9IP ratio, but that WHIP will get him killed in the bigs. He isnt ready now, and hence what is the problem with allowing him to stay in the minors for the rest of the yr?

You really have a hard time getting my point. I said it looks like he has turned the corner and if he can pitch like he has the last two weeks going forward, then he'll get called up. I realize his season stats don't look good, but that is because he had two really bad outings to start the year. If he pitches like that again in the next month, then yeah, they need to wait. But, his progression has been a steady improvement with each start. FWIW, here's his last two weeks....

 

3 starts, 1.80 ERA, 8.4 K/9, 1.8 BB/9, 7.8 H/9, 0.6 HR/9, 1.07 WHIP

 

If he keeps up that level, or close to it, for the next month, and the aformentioned pitchers continue to define suckitude, then I think we'll see him called up. Lots of IFs, but I can see it happening.

[ksushi]

Jon Lester is a self proclaimed 'slow starter' so I'm not worried about his early output. He was on a strict pitch count, was working on mostly secondary pitches, and was making a jump from AA to AAA. I think his season stats aren't really an indicator of how good he actually is. Lester is a beast.

[TheRivernator]

Jon Lester is a self proclaimed 'slow starter' so I'm not worried about his early output. He was on a strict pitch count, was working on mostly secondary pitches, and was making a jump from AA to AAA. I think his season stats aren't really an indicator of how good he actually is. Lester is a beast.

 

I know how good he can be. The question is, do you bring him up now or wait until next yr?

[jsinger121]

You bring him up when he is ready and that will likely be in late July or early August if not sooner depending on how he keeps pitching.

[YazYaz04]

ksushi, is that trey in your avatar?

[NomahsHammSammich]

2-4 4.05ERA 26.2IP 26H 29K 11BB 1.39WHIP

Nothing in these numbers says that he is pitching well. I know that record in the minors is garbage and to an extent ERA is as well. (This is the only time I say that ERA is NOT a good marker of how good a pitcher is). But, WHIP and BB/9IP are huge indicators, IMHO, of how a guy will do in the bigs. The kid has good stuff due to his 9+K/9IP ratio, but that WHIP will get him killed in the bigs. He isnt ready now, and hence what is the problem with allowing him to stay in the minors for the rest of the yr?

 

Gotta agree with the Riv..Lester is not ready. Now Cole Hamels...he WAS ready.. I had him in a SIM league which is now extinct...Every year I wondered when they would bring him up. They finally did. He is a BEAST..

 

Lester will most likely start the year in Boston next year..but I wouldn't totally rule-out a September call-up.

[TheRivernator]

I think he gets called up as a sept callup and pitches in mostly lefty-lefty matchups or might get a start depending on the standings. I expect him to be the sox #5 next yr...