Red Sox to acquire Soriano?

[guapo34]

If the scenario of moving Loretta to shortstop and bringing Soriano in to play Second...do you honestly feel that Soriano's defense would give up more runs then his speed/bat would create? I KNOW that moving Loretta to SS is a HUGE HUGE HUUUUUUGE (Huge Tom Huge - Reference for fellow 'Cuse posters...) if...but a possiblity nonetheless. Follow the formula below, we all know how huge Theo is on formulas and numbers...

 

Produced/Prevented By Loretta and Zalez - Allowed Due to Errors by Lorreta and Zalez = ?

Produced/Prevented By Loretta and Sori - Allowed Due to Errors by Sori and Loretta = ?

 

I really think you're going to get a higher number from the bottom equation. Do you disagree?

 

If they could deal Clement, who's making a solid 12 million next year...and get Sori back making 10 million you're actually CUTTING 2 million of team salary. I don't know, it's really starting to not sound too bad to me.

 

I don't think it'll happen though, I think that the Nationals would ask for somethign platooned with Clement, and I wouldn't be down for that.

 

Sure I'll disagree. You'll have the worst second basemen defensively in baseball and the worst shortstop defensively. Soriano isn't that good offensively. He hit for a lot of homeruns in texas, the best hitters park in the AL. He hit for a bad average, and didn't get on base at all. He was awful on the road last year.

 

Beyond all that you need to consider what it would take to get him. It would result in another downgrade from the club to subtract from your soriano equation, plus the money you'd pay him this year.

[redsoxrules]

Would you rather have 4 players add up to 60 homers or one player add up to 35? If you've read Moneyball, Jason Giambi, or Scott Hatteberg, David Justice, and Jeremy Giambi? I'm not saying I want Sori, but you saying that those four players would be better than having 1 35 HR guy is crazy.

 

If the players hit as many HRs as you said:

 

2B: minus 1 home run

SS: +7 HRs

3B: +10 HRs

1B: (Millar and Olerud) -2

 

A net gain of 14 home runs. Now if we had Soriano come in and hit 36 HR like he did last year, it's +26 while taking up one spot.

 

+26 from one player, or +14 from four? :dunno:

 

edit: for the record, I don't want Soriano, but arguing against him in the HR category is pointless

 

so having someone hitting 35 homeruns is automaticaly a better player than someone who hits 20?it would be if they were good in any other categories. but soriano isnt .bassicaly all hes worth is hitting 1 homerun every 20 at bats ,thats all he brings to the table,

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Sure I'll disagree. You'll have the worst second basemen defensively in baseball and the worst shortstop defensively. Soriano isn't that good offensively. He hit for a lot of homeruns in texas, the best hitters park in the AL. He hit for a bad average, and didn't get on base at all. He was awful on the road last year.

 

Beyond all that you need to consider what it would take to get him. It would result in another downgrade from the club to subtract from your soriano equation, plus the money you'd pay him this year.

 

 

No one is arguing that this would be a downgrade defensivley. I still, however, think your gaining more runs then you're giving up with the defense as is. These guys are professionals. They're going to make 50 and 55 errors, respectivley. And another thing, I really take issue with the "Soriano isn't that good offensivley" Dude you can't be serious...he's scored over 100 runs every year except one out of the past 4...including over 110 one year and over 125 another. And that's beside the OBVIOUS fact that he's a legitimate 40/40 threat. What does it take to be 'That Good Offensively' in your book? .345, 45, 145? He's a free swinger, we'll all give that to you, but he only struck out one more time then Ortiz and 6 more times then Manny last year like I brought up previously. I feel like Bellhorn had more then that by the AllStar break last year

 

Oh...and if they deal Clement, they're actually saving money this year. Clement makes 12, I believe, and Sori makes 10.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

so having someone hitting 35 homeruns is automaticaly a better player than someone who hits 20?it would be if they were good in any other categories. but soriano isnt .bassicaly all hes worth is hitting 1 homerun every 20 at bats ,thats all he brings to the table,

 

I didn't say I want him on the team, but there is no denying that he would be a good home run hitter...

[KeepTheFaith1229]

No one is arguing that this would be a downgrade defensivley. I still, however, think your gaining more runs then you're giving up with the defense as is. These guys are professionals. They're going to make 50 and 55 errors, respectivley. And another thing, I really take issue with the "Soriano isn't that good offensivley" Dude you can't be serious...he's scored over 100 runs every year except one out of the past 4...including over 110 one year and over 125 another. And that's beside the OBVIOUS fact that he's a legitimate 40/40 threat. What does it take to be 'That Good Offensively' in your book? .345, 45, 145? He's a free swinger, we'll all give that to you, but he only struck out one more time then Ortiz and 6 more times then Manny last year like I brought up previously. I feel like Bellhorn had more then that by the AllStar break last year

 

Oh...and if they deal Clement, they're actually saving money this year. Clement makes 12, I believe, and Sori makes 10.

 

Have you ever heard of OBP? .309 last year. And if you want to go last four years, here's a stat for you, for the last 4 years Soriano has struck out over 120 times and walked less than 40.

[Cityofchampions33]

It's not that he's not a good addition, it's just that we don't need him. Yeah he can hit homers and score runs, but this is all coming with the Texas Ranger's, in their field, and in their stacked lineup, I think anyone would do good in a lineup containing Tex and Young. Granted, we have Manny n Papi, but that'd mean he'd have to bat second, which would cost us a lot of runs because he can't move the runner over like Loretta can.

 

Pro's

-Can hit the long ball

-Scores a lot of runs

-Big RBI threat

-Would be great hitting in front of manny and Papi

 

Con's

-Terrible OBP

-Had 92 more K's then BBs

-We have no space for him

-Would be bad as a #2 hitter

-Has 1 year left on his contract

-We'd be dealing a big trade chip

[ORS]

What does it take to be 'That Good Offensively' in your book?

I'll tell you what it takes in my book, an EqA better than 84th out of 255 position players that made at least 225* outs. Soriano's EqA (an all-inclusive offensive stat that incorporates H, TB, SB, CS, BB, HBP, and IBB into the total plate appearances and adjusts for park effects) was .283. League average is .260. He was the 8th best out of 30 second basemen with at least 225* outs. He's a good player, but he's completely overrated offensively. Everyone loves him because he hits bombs, but there is more to the game.

 

*I picked 225 outs because that was the number that gave me 30 2B and over 240 position players, meaning this represents all the starters in MLB.

 

EDIT: And runs scored, just like RBI, are contextual runs, meaning they aren't an individual skill. He doesn't score runs without someone knocking him in. Anyone hitting in front of Teixeirra and Blalock, or Ortiz and Manny, is going to score a lot of runs.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Have you ever heard of OBP? .309 last year. And if you want to go last four years, here's a stat for you, for the last 4 years Soriano has struck out over 120 times and walked less than 40.

 

 

We can keep throwing stats back and forth if you want, because there's some that'll be in favor of Sori, and some that would go against Sori...For the record, I started off by saying that I DO NOT want this deal done. And I still don't. All I'm saying is some people are painting it out to be the be all and end all of the team if the trade goes through, and I whole-heartedly disagree. Bringing a guy aboard who swings like Sori wouldn't be fraction of as bad as people are making it out to be.

 

Also...the thought of spending 12 million on a guy to pitch middle relief has to irk you at least a little bit, doesn't it?? And that's realistically what we could be looking at with Clement...

[Cityofchampions33]

Are you talking 12 mill as in per year or in the 2 final years of his contract, because Clement only makes 6 mill a year

[guapo34]

No one is arguing that this would be a downgrade defensivley. I still, however, think your gaining more runs then you're giving up with the defense as is. These guys are professionals. They're going to make 50 and 55 errors, respectivley. And another thing, I really take issue with the "Soriano isn't that good offensivley" Dude you can't be serious...he's scored over 100 runs every year except one out of the past 4...including over 110 one year and over 125 another. And that's beside the OBVIOUS fact that he's a legitimate 40/40 threat. What does it take to be 'That Good Offensively' in your book? .345, 45, 145? He's a free swinger, we'll all give that to you, but he only struck out one more time then Ortiz and 6 more times then Manny last year like I brought up previously. I feel like Bellhorn had more then that by the AllStar break last year

 

Oh...and if they deal Clement, they're actually saving money this year. Clement makes 12, I believe, and Sori makes 10.

 

I understood your point, and i stick by what i said. Soriano isn't that good offensively. Away from texas last year:

 

Avg: .224

Obp: .265

Slg: .374

OPS: .639

 

Thos are awful. Not below average, awful. He is not a 40/40 threat. Stolen bases decline rapidly with age. He might have one more decent season stealing. He won't hit 20 HR's playing in Washington and he wouldn't hit 25 in fenway. He doesn't walk, hit for average, or get on base. His defense is awful.

[ksushi]

40/40 is a crappy arguement to throw out there. Red Sox don't steal, and it isn't true. He is a 40 homer threat in a good hitters park but he isn't a 40 homers and 40 steals threat. No sir.

[seabeachfred]

I just have to believe this rumor has no substance and that Theo is just not that dumb to try and trade for a guy like Soriano. He is a lousy second baseman, cannot show any plate discipline, has a lousy attitude, is a mee meee meeee guy all the way, has a pathetic on base average and would block Pedroia's rise to the Red Sox and put a class act and clutch player like Loretta on the bench. I hope the guys on WEEI just were having a hangover when they put out that rumor. Soriano would be a disaster in the clubhouse, on the field, and with the fans.

[Manny Goes Boom]

I just have to believe this rumor has no substance and that Theo is just not that dumb to try and trade for a guy like Soriano. He is a lousy second baseman, cannot show any plate discipline, has a lousy attitude, is a mee meee meeee guy all the way, has a pathetic on base average and would block Pedroia's rise to the Red Sox and put a class act and clutch player like Loretta on the bench. I hope the guys on WEEI just were having a hangover when they put out that rumor. Soriano would be a disaster in the clubhouse, on the field, and with the fans.

 

I agree (as do most of us here) with everything but that last blurb. Theres always going to be those fans who will like him for his bat, or those fans who like to talk s*** all the time and rub it itno the Yankees faces ("Look who we got..." kinda stuff) I dunno, but I don't want him. Loretta's good enough for me.

[CrespoBlows]

Are you talking 12 mill as in per year or in the 2 final years of his contract, because Clement only makes 6 mill a year

 

Actually, it's eight million a year. He made six million last year. He'll make nine million for the next two years.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I'm not sure why everyone is still going on about Alfonso Soriano??

 

Didn't the Nationals make a different deal for some crap pitcher while the Red Sox laughed about wanting Soriano.

 

I'd rather have too many pitchers than too many infielders. If we are going to deal a pitcher I would wait for a team to become desperate and give us a good prospect. Our current team is full but you could always continue to stock up the farm.

[26 to 6]

40/40 is a crappy arguement to throw out there. Red Sox don't steal, and it isn't true. He is a 40 homer threat in a good hitters park but he isn't a 40 homers and 40 steals threat. No sir.

What are you talking about? He is definately a 40 steals threat.

 

in 2001 and 2002 he had over 40 steals. In 2003 he had 35, which is pretty close to 40 (qualifying him as a threat for 40). Since going to Texas, he has had 18 and 30 in 2004 and 2005, respectively. Now that's definately not because he has lost a step. I dont know the reason, but He is definately still capable of stealing at least 40 with his speed.

[26 to 6]

I just have to believe this rumor has no substance and that Theo is just not that dumb to try and trade for a guy like Soriano. He is a lousy second baseman, cannot show any plate discipline, has a lousy attitude, is a mee meee meeee guy all the way, has a pathetic on base average and would block Pedroia's rise to the Red Sox and put a class act and clutch player like Loretta on the bench. I hope the guys on WEEI just were having a hangover when they put out that rumor. Soriano would be a disaster in the clubhouse, on the field, and with the fans.

I've definately noticed that side of Sori since leaving here. He was so much different though when he as here. He was a great teammate and great with the fans.

 

Bitter about the trade I guess.

 

If we didnt have Cano I would definately want the Yanks to go for him.

[redsoxrules]

I've definately noticed that side of Sori since leaving here. He was so much different though when he as here. He was a great teammate and great with the fans.

 

Bitter about the trade I guess.

 

If we didnt have Cano I would definately want the Yanks to go for him.

 

 

you seriously would like soriano on your team again? do you not remember what production he had for you guys the last 2 years he was on your team in the post season? face it the yanks needs people who can come in the clutch come playoff time ,wich hasent happened since they won there last WS. soriano is defenitely not the guy you want when it comes crunch time,thats probably one of the reason they let him go to begin with

[jsinger121]

you seriously would like soriano on your team again? do you not remember what production he had for you guys the last 2 years he was on your team in the post season? face it the yanks needs people who can come in the clutch come playoff time ,wich hasent happened since they won there last WS. soriano is defenitely not the guy you want when it comes crunch time,thats probably one of the reason they let him go to begin with

 

the reason they got rid of him is because they upgraded in talent by getting arod. when you look at the trade it is a completely lobsided trade for one of the best players in the game. the yankees sold high on soriano and go the better end of the trade. the yanks would not mind having soriano still but when you have the chance to add an arod you do it because he is a significantly better player than soriano.

[redsoxrules]

yeah but if the yanks really wanted him to stay that bad they would have found another way to make the deal

[ksushi]

What are you talking about? He is definately a 40 steals threat.

 

in 2001 and 2002 he had over 40 steals. In 2003 he had 35, which is pretty close to 40 (qualifying him as a threat for 40). Since going to Texas, he has had 18 and 30 in 2004 and 2005, respectively. Now that's definately not because he has lost a step. I dont know the reason, but He is definately still capable of stealing at least 40 with his speed.

 

 

I guess I didn't make this clear but I was talking about in a Sox uni. You think he would get 40 steals as a Sox? Your dreaming if you do.

[jsinger121]

yeah but if the yanks really wanted him to stay that bad they would have found another way to make the deal

 

there was no other way for them to make the deal because they didn't have any tradeable chips other than soriano the rangers wanted. either soriano was going to the rangers in the deal or that deal would have never happened.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

I guess I didn't make this clear but I was talking about in a Sox uni. You think he would get 40 steals as a Sox? Your dreaming if you do.

 

I half agree with that...I don't think he'd steal 40 for the Sox, but not because he's lost a step or anything like that. It's just because that's not the RedSox game. But then again, Francona has never had anyone that had the speed of Soriano...he's hands down faster then Damon, and Damon swiped 18, 19, and 30 the past 3 years, respectively. I also think it would depend on where Soriano fit into the lineup...if he batted #2 in front Ortiz and ManRam (who's hair looks freaking AWESOME by the way haha) obviously he wouldn't steal 40. His job would be to get one base and just wait for one of the 85 home runs that those guys are repsonsible for. But then again, if we dropped him down to add force to the bottom of the lineup, like a 7 or 8 guy, I think it's likely that he could get 40, for no other reason by Francona trying to get him into SP for singles and doubles guys like Loretta and Coco.

 

I think the Sox style limits his ability to go 40/40, but definitley not Sori's ability.

[26 to 6]

yeah but if the yanks really wanted him to stay that bad they would have found another way to make the deal

Um..no we wouldnt have. That was the only option. We practically robbed them in that deal (only giving up Soriano and a prospect with a low ceiling, plus all the money they picked up and defferred and stuff). Not trading Soriano would have been murder.

 

you seriously would like soriano on your team again? do you not remember what production he had for you guys the last 2 years he was on your team in the post season? face it the yanks needs people who can come in the clutch come playoff time ,wich hasent happened since they won there last WS. soriano is defenitely not the guy you want when it comes crunch time,thats probably one of the reason they let him go to begin with

I wouldnt mind having him..IF WE DIDNT HAVE CANO. He's a better option than Tony Womack (which is who would be there if we didnt have Cano). He can hit and run, and despite the fact that he is a free-swinger, is a great player.

 

I guess I didn't make this clear but I was talking about in a Sox uni. You think he would get 40 steals as a Sox? Your dreaming if you do.

Because the Sox dont EVER run. But its not like he isnt capable.

[26 to 6]

I half agree with that...I don't think he'd steal 40 for the Sox, but not because he's lost a step or anything like that. It's just because that's not the RedSox game. But then again, Francona has never had anyone that had the speed of Soriano...he's hands down faster then Damon, and Damon swiped 18, 19, and 30 the past 3 years, respectively. I also think it would depend on where Soriano fit into the lineup...if he batted #2 in front Ortiz and ManRam (who's hair looks freaking AWESOME by the way haha) obviously he wouldn't steal 40. His job would be to get one base and just wait for one of the 85 home runs that those guys are repsonsible for. But then again, if we dropped him down to add force to the bottom of the lineup, like a 7 or 8 guy, I think it's likely that he could get 40, for no other reason by Francona trying to get him into SP for singles and doubles guys like Loretta and Coco.

 

I think the Sox style limits his ability to go 40/40, but definitley not Sori's ability.

Exactly.

[MC Hammer]

I wouldnt mind having him..IF WE DIDNT HAVE CANO. He's a better option than Tony Womack (which is who would be there if we didnt have Cano). He can hit and run, and despite the fact that he is a free-swinger, is a great player.

I really like what Cano brings at the plate besides the free-swinging that you mentioned, but do you think the Yankees could hire a Minor League coach that could teach your 2B's how to field. Soriano is disgusting in the field and Cano is hardly any better.

[26 to 6]

I really like what Cano brings at the plate besides the free-swinging that you mentioned, but do you think the Yankees could hire a Minor League coach that could teach your 2B's how to field. Soriano is disgusting in the field and Cano is hardly any better.

The thing with Soriano (I think at least) is that he was converted to second base. If I recall correctly, he was a pretty good Shortstop (though I could be wrong).

 

I dont think Cano is as bad as most people make him out to be, but he's definately not a very good defender. Hopefully in the coming years that changes. I saw improvement in him last year as the season went on (I guess all the work that he did with Sojo) and hopefully the improvement continues. I think Bowa will be a pretty big help to him this year.

[seabeachfred]

Tell you what Yankee man. You guys take Soriano back. We'll pass. The guy stinks at second base, and we have young players ready to step in there.

[jsinger121]

The thing with Soriano (I think at least) is that he was converted to second base. If I recall correctly, he was a pretty good Shortstop (though I could be wrong).

 

I dont think Cano is as bad as most people make him out to be, but he's definately not a very good defender. Hopefully in the coming years that changes. I saw improvement in him last year as the season went on (I guess all the work that he did with Sojo) and hopefully the improvement continues. I think Bowa will be a pretty big help to him this year.

 

he was a shortstop coming up in the minors.

[26 to 6]

Tell you what Yankee man. You guys take Soriano back. We'll pass. The guy stinks at second base, and we have young players ready to step in there.

I didnt say that I want to go and get Sori back. I said if we DIDNT HAVE CANO I would want to get Sori back. He's better than Womack. But as it stands right now there is no room for him. No room in the infield, outfield, DH, no room anywhere.