Rice into Hall:yes or no?

[sarasoxfan]

every year this comes up and I thought I would throw it into the mix and get some opinions.

personally, as much as I like the idea of any redsox going into the Hall. i cant for the life of me make a case for jim.

Besides being one of the world's biggest pricks which in no way should effect his going into the hall, his numbers just were very good and not hall material.

2400+ hits, 380+ homers, those arent hall numbers pure and simple.

 

Some one must think he is Hall worthy it comes up every friggin year.

i VOTE no

[jsinger121]

his numbers were pre steroids which in my view look better. he has just as good numbers as tony perez and orlando cepeda both in the hall of fame and they both played more yrs to get those numbers unlike rice. Jim rice was the most feared hitter in American League if not the entire majors for 12 years. he is hall worthy went you look at what he did before steroids were in baseball. it will make people appreciate him more.

[Cityofchampions33]

Yea, get his ass in there

[ksushi]

How can you vote no? Absolutley.

[26 to 6]

He definately deserves to be in there.

[a700hitter]

Rice deserve to be in. His career was hampered by two broken wrists, but for a ten year period he was the dominant offensive force in the AL. Yhe NL had Schmidt and Dawson, but Rice was the premier slugger in the AL. He led the league in total bases three years in a row. Not too many guys have done that. In 1978, he topped 400 total bases. That had not been done since Joe D. did it in 1937 (41 years). Here's the big surprise though.No AL player, even in the steroid era, has topped 400 total bases in the 27 years since 1978. It's only been done 4 times in the NL --twice by Sosa (steroids?) and once each by Helton and Larry Walker (Both benefited from the Colorado effect).

 

As for Rice being a prick, he just bristled at the intrusiveness of the Boston Press, and he paid the price for it in the papers. He never had a problem with teamates. He played the game the right way. He ran out grounders, and he was an underrated although not a graceful fielder. He was compassionate. I remember him going into the stands and carrying out a fan who had been struck by a line drive foul ball. He carried her into the clubhouse for medical attention. I remember him picking up Jerry Remy and carrying him like a child to the clubhouse when he hurt his knee at home plate. I also remember him going into the stands after som Yankee fans grabbed his hat. All in all, he deserves to be in Cooperstown.

[DrewDaGreat]

100% yes.

[MANNYHOF24]

every year this comes up and I thought I would throw it into the mix and get some opinions.

personally, as much as I like the idea of any redsox going into the Hall. i cant for the life of me make a case for jim.

Besides being one of the world's biggest pricks which in no way should effect his going into the hall, his numbers just were very good and not hall material.

2400+ hits, 380+ homers, those arent hall numbers pure and simple.

 

Some one must think he is Hall worthy it comes up every friggin year.

i VOTE no

 

I completly disagree with you, during a 12 year period he led the the MLB in like 12 different catergories including hits, hrs, and rbis, he should be in, no question

[Cityofchampions33]

Owned

[schillingouttheks]

Damn right he should be in.

[sarasoxfan]

dont think he has enough there are plenty of guys like him from Murphy, Dawson, Dave parker,..playing at fenway helped and he couldnt field that well. He only made the all star team 8 times during his career, and led the AL in homers 3 times-doesnt sound like the most feared hitter in the league to me. yount, Yaz, Fisk, canseco...etc.298 average, not 500 homers, and not 3000 hits..a player shouldnt be rewraded for what he might have done if played longer. Hit into a ton DP's. I just think he is on the edge-- and more than anything else that is why he hasnt be elceted to be in.

If they lower the bar for him there a bunch of other guys that should be as well.

 

as far as the intrusivenes of the boston press. Barf, that' is their job and if I hear one more athlete complain about the press I might swallow my tongue--bet he's sorry he was such a terd to those guys now.

But going into the stand after the yankee fans deserves honoring and should be mentioned on the plaque.

[ARod2212]

What's your opinion on Mattingly?

[jsinger121]

if rice is not in the hall of fame players like tony perez and orlando cepeda should not be in. they have practically the same numbers as rice. rice deserves to get in and in my opinion alot of writers seem to be jumping on the jim rice bandwagon this season in order to put him into the hall of fame along with the great players of HIS ERA.

[riverside sluggers]

From 1975 to the late 80's Jim Rice reigned as one of the, if not the most feared hitter in the American League. The "David Ortiz" of his era basically. I can remember there were times they actually intentionally walked him several times when the bases were loaded and the Red Sox were already ahead. And RISP is just one of the many aspects he led the league in...

[sarasoxfan]

if rice gets in then so should mattingly ..IMO.

I think Jimbo will get in though because this isnt a striong field, which helps him.

I think Blyleven deserves it, he played on some majorly s***** teams and compiled a great career.

[sarasoxfan]

this artcilke makes a case about mattingly, not that I agree with it, but the f*** are wion shares?

 

However, a detailed comparison of Mattingly and Rice would be a good transition to the outfielder on this years HOF ballot, and those who know me best understand that I am all about smooth transitions and sturdy scaffolding techniques. After all, the road to knowledge is built with the bricks made by the idiot who required an village to raise.

 

Total Win Shares

 

Rice 282

Mattingly 263

 

Rice has the advantage in career Win Shares, but both are under 300, so they would require a hell of a peak to get in. Let's look at five year peaks first:

 

Best Five Year Cumulative Win Shares

 

Rice 142

Mattingly 148

 

Both have rather impressive five year peaks, with Mattingly having a slight edge. However, things space out a bit over the ten year span.

 

Best Ten Year Cumulative Win Shares

 

Rice 227

Mattingly 241

 

While Mattingly's peak falls under the gray area of "Is it good enough?", Rice's is closer to proverbial line in the sand. The hair splitters can argue the exact coordinates of that line until the Reckoning, but preciseness really doesn't matter because Rice was an outfielder and Mattingly was a first basemen.

 

Most of the absolute elite position players in the Hall were outfielders. Guys like Mays, Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, etc. walk stride for stride with the baseball gods. In fact, many would argue thay are the baseball gods. Let's look at the career Win shares of LFers in the Hall of Fame:

 

Win Shares

Stan Musial 604

Ted Williams 555

Carl Yastremski 488

Fred Clarke 400

Jesse Burkett 389

Zack Wheat 380

Al Simmons 375

Will Stargell 370

Ed Delahanty 355

Goose Goslin 355

Lou Brock 348

Billy Williams 347

Joe Medwick 312

Jim O'Rourke 305

Joe Kelley 305

Heine Manush 285

Jim Rice 282

Ralph Kiner 242

Chick Hafey 186

Monte Irvin 98

 

Average* 367

 

*excluding Irvin, who spent most of his career in the Negro Leagues

 

Manush and Hafey are dubious Veteran's Committee choices. Hafey might be the worst selection in the Hall, but that is a discussion for another day, as is Kiner's election. Kelly, O'Rourke and Medwick are VC choices also, but their inductions aren't affronts to decency. The player elected by the writers into the Hall other than Kiner with the lowest Win Share total is Billy Williams at 347, which is light years ahead of Rice.

 

Rice' peak doesn't exactly measure up to left fielders either. for instance, many would argue that Lou Brock is a borderline choice. However, his five year and ten year peaks are better than Rice's.

 

Total Win Shares Ten Year Five Year

 

Brock 348 253 143

Rice 282 227 142

 

When you get dusted by Lou Brock, you should realize you have to by a ticket to the Hall like all mortals. The only thing that Rice has going for him is five year peak, and that shrivels in the shadow of the LF HOFers.

 

Best Five Year Cumulative Win Shares

 

Ted Williams 221

Musial 207

Yaz 172

Delahanty 169

Simmons 165

Burkett 161

Medwick 157

Kiner 155

Stargell 153

B. Williams 143

Wheat 149

Clarke 147

Goslin 147

Kelley 144

Brock 143

Rice 142

Manush 139

Hafey 116

O'Rourke 110

 

Rice's five year peak amongst left fielders doesn't rank high enough to stand alone. Considering that Rice brings nothing else to a HOF discussion other than the clamoring of the Red Sox Nation, any attempt to justify his entry is either ignorance or homerism.

[ARod2212]

Win Shares basically try to encompass every aspect of statistics (offense, defense, pitching) into telling how good a player is. The premise behind them is solid, but is a work in progress.

 

These are the 2005 Win Shares http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php

 

I like them for the most part, and put a pretty good deal of stock into them.

[ORS]

Sarasoxfan, if you are really interested in knowing more, you can read the book Win Shares by Bill James. It details the calculation of win shares and the reasoning behind the formulas. I haven't read it yet, but it is on my list.

 

While I am interested in WS, I prefer to look at WARP. WARP/VORP (Wins Above Replacement Player, Value Over Replacement Player) gives you a better idea of how much better the player is than his likely emergency replacement (journeyman from the minors, drek signed off waivers). THT does now have WSAB (Win Shares Above Bench), which is a lot like WARP. However, you need to divide the WS number by 3 to determine how many actual wins that correlates to.

 

EDIT: Back to the thread topic. I think the players on this year's ballot to get in should be Blyleven and Jack Morris. Here's a link to the list of the players on the ballot: HOF Ballot

[RedRuffing15]

Jim Rice could be a landmark player for what si looked at when voting for the Hall of fame. There is no doubt in my mind he should be, but there is doubt in my mind he will get in. There is no argument he was a great hitter, and his fieling was good, a career .980 Fielder.

 

 

My question is, does what you team does effect, I say yes, lets look at some of the lesser Hall of Famers...

 

Orlando Cepeda.......2 Time WS winnner.

Ozzie Smith.............1 Time WS winner

Mike Schmidt...........1 Time WS winner

 

 

All those guys don't have incredible carrer numbers...but they do have rings.

I feel as if Rice should be in, but does the fact he never wona world series, and doesn't have incredable numbers, work agesnst him?

[sarasoxfan]

read a book,are you mad?

 

 

Ni just kidding thanks red seat.

 

You guys make a strong case for jim. In terms of power hitters it seems 500 hrs seems be the key--well, dont tell that to andre dawson.

 

I think jim rice will get in this year becasue he kind of deserves it, he's a red sox (okay I'm biased-so i would be happy), and the field is pretty week.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

I hope he gets in. Does anyone think that if he gets in his number will be retired?

[RedSoxRooter]

His number should be retired by the Sox anyway.

[Varitek33]

I hope he gets in. Does anyone think that if he gets in his number will be retired?

 

 

I hope so.

[ahhchon]

every year this comes up and I thought I would throw it into the mix and get some opinions.

personally, as much as I like the idea of any redsox going into the Hall. i cant for the life of me make a case for jim.

Besides being one of the world's biggest pricks which in no way should effect his going into the hall, his numbers just were very good and not hall material.

2400+ hits, 380+ homers, those arent hall numbers pure and simple.

 

Some one must think he is Hall worthy it comes up every friggin year.

i VOTE no

 

jim rice was only a prick because he didn't comply with the media and they turned him into some demon, the same thing happened to pedro, the same thing would happen to big papi if he started to ignore the media. either you are with them or against them.

 

you get all those tries for a reason, he's not a first ballot hofmer but by now his time has come.

 

john

[Ray10]

This guy should definatley be in the Hall. He may have acted like a prick but still he was a true ballplayer.

[Varitek33]

This guy should definatley be in the Hall. He may have acted like a prick but still he was a true ballplayer.

 

 

Indeed.:thumbsup:

[sarasoxfan]

i dont think being a prick is hurting him as much as as his numbers put him on the cusp in the opinion of many non redsox fans.

I think no matter what they should retire his number though,.

[gosox613]

wow how much opinions change on this board...last year i strated a similar thread and most poeple said no way his career numbers arent good enough

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2469

[gosox613]

I am annoyed by the argument that he didnt have huge career numbers; he was one of the most feared hitters of his time and was completely dominant. I read somewhere (not that this matters at all, just interesting) that he hit 16 consecutive homers in BP. He shouldnt be not considered just because he knows when to retire and he didnt keep playing until his limbs fell off; some people play for so long that are not of very high caliber and they look better than they really were becuase they have racked up lots of homers or hits or whatever.

[SCM33]

In terms of being a prick, Ty Cobb says hello.