UtahSox

And yet we are 8th-9th in spending vs 2018 we were 1st. That’s net regression 8 spots In life, in business, in baseball nothing happens in a vacuum. I think a lot of the points you are making above……the AB2 40 million AV, the Devers deal and subsequent dump- All fit into what I wrote a few pages back about optics, yes we made all those moves last year, and barely, barely were in Tax. Us and cubs have the largest gap between revenue and payroll. We know we spend less on scouts than the Yankees and the Dodgers. So basically derive at the assumption we NET. While they win. I think you guys who have been here a long time, sometimes look for key performance indicators that show slight improvement, you’re way down in the details. yet take your eye off the main goal. As I say to my team, when I think we are too far in the weeds. let’s fly at 30,000 feet for 10 minutes. 1- do we have a championship worthy roster? if you can’t say yes emphatically to the first question, proceed to question 2 2- what do we have to do in free agency, to answer yes to the first question. We should be spend 300 million until you get there. That’s what top four teams do. And the Boston Red Sox are a top 4 brand in baseball.

The DFA of Buehler made no sense to me. Yes he sucked generally, Would have cost us 500k a start, would have made 3-4 more starts by end of year… And I’ll bet FO wished they kept him, considering his best baseball was always October, and we had to roll out a rookie in game 3. Or he could have been a stop gap in game 2 when Bello gave us a solid 2 innings.

Oh if we don’t sign AB2 we aren’t making the playoffs unless the stars align. And Mayer is 3+ WAR

We all know this is true, I think the frustration comes out in trying to educate others on what might be happening. As my dad always says “what you do speaks so loud, I can’t hear what you say” - he stole it from someone. This years frustration is a different frustration for me, hence why I joined this “support group” ha ha Everything set up so perfectly to add Alonso, AB2, trade for a #2 and go take a real run at a WS….. Alas here we are, RS are going to scrape and claw to hopefully 88 wins, and backdoor into playoffs again. And yet to prove JH’s point…. I still booked 3 road trips to see Red Sox this year. Including my 1st Red Sox vs Yankees Fenway series. He knows he’s got us. Go Sox!

You’re both right. At the beginning of last year expectations were that we were on the rise and ownership belief in that was reflected…. It’s funny how people spin it, as we overachieved last year but many picked us to win AL East after we got crochet, moved Devers to DH and had Bregman signed. And that’s before Roman Anthony became who Roman Anthony was in July- August, so you could imagine What we could have been. And this is the Rub, yes we were aggressive, but you can’t give Breslow credit for being aggressive in December-February without debiting the move that happened in June. We are not a better baseball team having Yoshida DH versus Devers. Now, if he would have traded Devers and actually been aggressive at the trade deadline(like he said he was going to be) then you could say yes things are changing. I just don’t see it. I see fake hustle, I see optics, I see Hella conservative management and ownership that’s going to flounder what should be a championship window.

Long post sorry: don’t expect any of you to read it. Just had to get my thoughts out there. I work for a large local company with over 800 employees, significant revenue, and it is locally high public-facing, I am privy to participation in the board meetings. In these meetings the conversation is driven almost entirely around optics. Too often, the focus isn’t on what is actually best for the business, nor the products, but on how decisions will be perceived by customers and clients. I see a similar dynamic with the Red Sox and their early extensions of players like Rafaela, Anthony, and Campbell. On the surface, these deals are framed as smart baseball moves—locking up young talent at a discount before they enter their prime. That part is definitely true. But there’s another layer to this that doesn’t get discussed enough: “the difference between spending optics, and actual cash spending.” If the sole objective were to put the best possible product on the field within parameters of 2026-2027 regardless of financial optics, you would wait to extend these early risers. Allowing these players to prove themselves further, and take the traditional arbitration-to-free-agency route. Instead, early extensions allow the team to inflate reported AAV figures—which DOMINATES public and media narratives—while deferring real cash outlays into the future. In the present, payroll cash remains controlled, profits are maximized, and future negotiation risk is eliminated. The result is a masterclass in optics management. The organization can legitimately point to rising AAV numbers and claim it is “spending,” even though the actual cash commitment today remains relatively modest. From a business standpoint, it’s savvy. From a competitive or fan-facing perspective, it creates the illusion of aggressive investment without the corresponding financial sacrifice. Example: Last season, the Red Sox had Devers and the consensus No. 1 prospect in baseball in Roman Anthony—who held that ranking for a damn good reason. In August, the team extended Roman Anthony at a $16.25M AAV, yet in the upcoming season he will actually earn only $2.5M in real cash. Just months earlier, in June the team moved Devers off the books. Devers carried a $29.5M AAV, and importantly, that was also $29.5M in real cash paid this year, with the following three seasons requiring 33m real cash vs 29.5m AAV even more cash than his AAV. By trading Devers, the team immediately improves its cash position by roughly $27M. But from an optics standpoint, it doesn’t look like cost-cutting at all. On paper, Devers’ $29.5M AAV is replaced—at least partially—by Roman Anthony’s $16.25M AAV. The public narrative becomes “we’re still spending,” even though the actual cash outlay drops dramatically. That’s the brilliance of the strategy. Cash spending goes down, near-term profit goes up, long-term negotiation risk disappears, and AAV-based reports still show meaningful payroll commitment. From a financial and optics-management perspective, it’s genuinely clever. It allows the organization to look aggressive without actually being aggressive in real dollars. Red Sox appear to be more interested in ‘optics’ backdooring our way into 3 games in October and spinning the optics vs actually winning. In that sense, the Red Sox have been extremely effective at looking like big spenders, without actually being big spenders.

This is really well said. I might offer another phrase aside from the word cheap, although cheap is the root of their goal. But everything you just described is “optics over everything”.

Saying “we spend” by comparing ourselves to all 30 MLB teams misses the point. That’s the wrong benchmark. The only comparison that matters is against our true revenue peers. Look at the next 6–7 teams in revenue: the Yankees, Dodgers, Blue Jays, Cubs, Phillies, and Mets. Against that group, the Red Sox are recently last — or trading places with the Cubs — in actual spending. Yes, it’s technically true that we’re in the CBT. But context matters. We’re also roughly $60 million behind teams like the Phillies and Blue Jays, who generate $100 million less in revenue than we do. So the issue isn’t whether we spend relative to the league. It’s whether we spend appropriately relative to our revenue and competitive position. And by that standard, we clearly don’t.

That sucks…. Wish our beloved had its highest payroll ever.

They could have bylaws that they have to uphold? Payroll being a max certain % of Revenue etc etc. we don’t know what we don’t know. Minority owners can sometimes dictate limited Amount of control/ checks and balances. what’s interesting to me, is John Henry has enough money to last him several lifetimes, even with the private jet, private yacht, etc. To me it seems like it would be more about his legacy. We know baseball is his biggest passion, outside of music?? He named his entire sports group after the baseball team he owns. It’s strange to me that he doesn’t want to win more with his crown jewel.

What’s crazy is we also have this really good manager, who by almost all accounts is very well respected by players/ FO people in this league. How long till he gets an offer to fix the Mets, take the Phillies over the others top etc. and he takes it? Look at this offseason, Instead of coming out of pocket and signing Pete Alonso and Alex Bregman, served up on a platter..,.. we’ve lost countless prospects, trying to mix and match our way to a championship Dynasty team. That’s just not how they’re usually built. On a separate note, I’ve been gone for the last week. Have we confirmed that Alex Bregman has a five or six year deal on the table?

Now do this exercise with Dodgers, Mets, Phillies, Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Bluejays only….. in 7 seasons what is average? How many WS appearances is avg? Championship series is avg? How many do Red Sox have?

The framework of the argument is wrong because averages are over 30 teams who gives a sh** about the 30 team MLB. The Red Sox should only compare themselves to 6 teams right now. And of those seven teams, is two playoff appearances in seven seasons average??? abso-freaking-lutely it’s average at best. The Red Sox have very little in common with the Tampa Bay rays /Miami Marlins of the world etc. IMO comparison should have their data removed.

This is one thing I strongly dislike some Red Sox fans do from time to time- I refuse to compare the Boston Red Sox to the 30 team MLB. We should have very little in common with Rays, Rockies, Royals, A’s of MLB They should and MUST always be compared to the others in the big 4 (Dodgers, Cubs, Yankees) lately you could be kind and add (Phillies, Mets, Bluejays) but at worst we should compare everything the Red Sox do vs these others in top7. It’s interesting to watch the Blue Jays starting to carry the same kind of aura the Red Sox had from about 2000 to 2018. It feels like we’re watching a team transition into a national brand, with revenue accelerating quickly and momentum building on and off the field. If I were John Henry, sitting on $100+ million in additional revenue and a roster on the brink of breaking wide open, I’d be aggressive. I’d go get Bichette and Bregman. Then I’d trade Tristan Casas, Marcelo Mayer, and Campbell or Ceddanne Rafaela to land frontline pitching — whether that’s Alcantara with Cabrera, Ragans with Bubic, or separate deals for someone like Peralta or Skubal. What you can’t do is allow Toronto to spend heavily, succeed, and grow unchecked. You want them to feel the sting of going all-in and still falling short. If the Blue Jays fully ascend on this trajectory, the AL East won’t just be the toughest division — it’ll be the most punishing path to the playoffs in baseball, by a wide margin.

Funny how they added 2 right handed bats that they needed that each hit 36+ home runs and 100+ RBI’s both are right in their prime. And swapped essentially Baz for Rodriguez (always injured) and are still not done. And we marginalize their improvements. If we added Baz for Houck, and Ward+ Alonso to RS we’d be over the moon. They still have all the young core Henderson, beavers, Basallo, Holladay, rautschman, westburg… I don’t know much about their FO but that was a master class on how to maneuver in a “championship window”. AL East will be a nightmare.

If you think Houston would even entertain this, I have some beautiful oceanfront property here in Utah to sell you.

The idea of trading Duran for Paredes plus a reliever from Houston is interesting, and I don’t hate it. I can see Paredes at third base working. Is he as good as Bregman? No… and you’d unquestionably lose a lot of intangibles, leadership for Anthony and others as well. That said, if Bregman or Bichette truly aren’t realistic options (can’t believe I’m writing this sh*t) then a deal like this could make sense — but only if it’s paired with a legit SP2 signing. In this scenario, you almost have to go out and sign Ranger Suárez or Framber Valdez to compensate for the downgrade from last year at 3B. What is becoming clear to me is the idea that this team can meaningfully improve only through trades without eventually gutting the farm system. Every “controlled, cost-efficient” upgrade comes at the expense of multiple prospects, and that bill adds up fast. This is why the Yankees, Dodgers, 2004-2018 Red Sox were always in contention. They didn’t mortgage the future for the now. And they always spent in the now to stay in the window. That’s really the core issue. There’s no scenario where this roster takes a true step forward without either 1. spending real money or 2. accepting real farm depletion. If ownership won’t spend, then the latter becomes inevitable — and that drastically shortens the championship window. Or maybe I’m being forced to confront a third reality… Story time: When I was in high school, I played on a competitive basketball team made up of players from four different schools. One guy on the team was loud, aggressive, muscled up, and honestly kind of a douche. He was by far the least skilled player we had. If plus-minus had been tracked, I have no doubt he would’ve been dead last — and not even close. Most of us didn’t like playing with him. He took unnecessary chances on D, constantly forced you to ad lib from your assignment to cover for him… He was not a very skilled offensive player. But to his credit, he figured something out early: the coach valued guys who “cared loudly” Yelling. Emotional swings. Hustle. Fighting. Physicality. “Wanting it.” So even though he wasn’t good, the coach kept playing him. One day at practice we were scrimmaging, and there was a loose ball headed out of bounds. It was obvious to everyone on the court — myself included — that the ball was gone. There was no angle, Usain Bolt wasn’t going to be able to save it, no chance anyone was getting within 10 feet of it. But this guy took off after it anyway. He sprinted, launched himself, and jumped straight into a garbage can on the sideline, cutting his forehead open above his eye. I’m not exaggerating when I say he was at least 12-15 feet away from the ball when it hit the ground out of bounds. Everyone was thinking the same thing: “Why the hell did he jump? That was weird??” Practice stopped. He went to get stitches. And the coach — completely blinded by what he thought was “hustle” — made the rest of us run ladders, yelling that we needed to be more like him. The guy ended up starting the next few games because of it. That moment always stuck with me. Because it taught me that sometimes it’s not about outcomes. It’s about performative effort for the person/ group you’re trying to appease. Which brings me to John Henry. By all accounts, he’s a very smart man. He knows what it takes to win at the MLB level — he’s done it before. So the question becomes: is this ownership group actually trying to win, or is this really just performative effort to keep Red Sox nation at bay?? Is the front office just jumping into the garbage can 12 feet from the ball? Time will tell, but if we don’t add at all by free agency, I think I’ve come to my conclusion.

you specifically said “you could logically trade one of those guys for a prospect haul to restock your farm‘ To which my rebuttal was I think if you’re in a championship window…. (Breslows words) You don’t trade a gold glove center fielder, or a 4.7 WAR guy to restock the farm system. You use those chips to make the team considerably better. And if that trade isn’t available, you keep the 4 OFers, play Rafaela at SS/2b when those players have an off Day, with Duran in Center. Then have Duran DH 60-70% of time. That will help team win much more than trading Duran for a 2029 left fielder. Duran > Yoshida…. So unless a trade helps team now, you don’t make that trade.

Not if you’re trying win a World Series in 2026. You don’t trade a gold glove CFer or 4.7 WAR player for 2029 prospects in the midst of a World Series run. You need value back. I think you’re gonna need all 4 OFers. Unless it makes you drastically better.

Much rather have Contreras for 17m than Munetaka for 17m. Right handed, much better defensively, much higher basement….. Other than we lost Dobbins in deal but you can’t have 30 pitchers on the 40 man. Good move by Breslow.

Where you seeing that?

Yeah I like this move, looks like we gave up Dobbins, Fajardo and another guy I hadn’t heard of. looks like 8m in cash as well. How does that cash work vs AAV? So he is owed 41.5m over 2 seasons can we cut his AAV down to 17.25m?

By far the biggest thing would be push ownership to spend! Via business plans, communication and vision. Not trading for 62 pitchers and none of them w/ TOTR stuff.

I think I’d rather keep Duran than trade him for Lodolo in this deal. crochet, Gray, Bello, Oviedo/Sandoval/Tolle/Early LF Anthony 2b Marte 1b Diaz RF Abreu SS Story CF Duran DH Casas/ Yoshida or Romy c Narvaez 3B Mayer (hope he isn’t a platoon if he is… multiple prominent Talksox contributors will have some explaining to do.)

Section 10 said it…. Not me, their sources said that they both project best as DH’s which is part of why their markets haven’t been hot.