moonslav59

I'll believe it when I see it.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am. Not many closers have the mentality to not want to remain the closer.

So, we can come back with Porcello and Price game 4 & 5 on normal rest. Hmmm....

JF is going no where......DD just recently said he did a great job managing this year. I agree that JF is not going to get canned, but even if DD was considering a change, he'd still say what he said about JF. You can't really read into this all that much. Sometimes fans look for something that's not there. I'm not a big fan of JF but I don't believe he's the difference maker, good or bad. It's the players' game. Agreed. 100%.

Like the opposing idea that when he left a guy in when we were winning, and he got shelled, he was bashed for leaving the guy in too long as well?

The team had a couple of bad games. It's not because of lack of momentum. It's not because of lack of home field advantage. It's because they played badly. End of story. Our society has become obsessed with laying blame. Like every slump needs a reason- needs a person to pin it all on. We peaked a little too early. It happens. It's not over yet, because this team has shown it can turn around on a dime either way- to the good or the bad.

Aren't you leaving out the fact that it was Farrell that was at the helm for two last place finishes before this year?

If we get Turner, it would likely be for multwiple years, therebt blocking Moncada AND Devers. I'm fine with the idea, especially if it takes Moncada or Devers to pry Quintana away from the CWS. I'd love to get Jansen or Melancon, but Kimbrel will pout.

The reasons why Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, David Robertson, Jose Abreu and Todd Frazier would be attractive trade targets for the Red Sox are the same reasons why the White Sox should build a contending team around them. They suck, except the guys I want... LOL.

They also have some awful contracts and may give up some good talent for less in return, if the team takes Shields off their hands. Here's their big contracts: Shields $44M/2 ($18.75M luxury tax hit) Eaton: $38.4M/5 ($4.7M luxury) Sale: $38M/3 ($6.5M luxury) Qunitana: $37.85M/4 ($4.2M luxury) Abreu: $34M/3 ($11.3M luxury) Robertson: $25M/2 ($11.5M luxury) Cabrera $15M/1 ($14M) Frazier: Last arb year One very big asset Quintana and Sale have to a team like the Sox is the very low luxury tax hit they have attached to their contracts. With the Sox straddling the line on a %50 tax rate next year, picking up one of these aces would be a big plus in more than one way. It's almost shocking how the White Sox appear to have several players that match right up with just about every high need the Sox have: Ace: Quintana or Sale Closer/top set-up man: Robertson 3B short term solution: Frazier 1B (move HanRam to DH): Abreu Assuming Frazier wins a $10M arb, the luxury tax cost for all five of these players combined would only be $43.5M. That's less than $9M each! It makes me feel like offering the whole farm for all of them! We could even afford to take on Shields' contract to lessen the return needed. That would up the luxury hit to $60M, but Frazier would be gone after 1 year and Shields and Robertson after 2 years. I'm not saying I'm for this idea, but would the CWS take this for all 5 plus Shields? JBJ, Wright, Pomeranz, Shaw, Swihart, Moncada, Kopech, Travis, Owens, Johnson. Maybe we could get by keeping Devers, Travis & Groome for some semblance of a farm remaining.

Here's how I see our 2017 depth chart at each position. I am placing some players at multiple positions, if they are better than whatever else we have there. SP: Porcello, Price, ERod, Wright, Pomeranz, Buchholz (assuming option given) Kelly, Elias, Owens, Johnson, Haley, Cuevas, Kopech (not 2017: Groome) RP: Kimbrel, (Buchholz, Pomeranz or Wright), Smith, Kelly, Ross, Barnes, Hembree Abad, Scott, Workman, Ramirez, Martin, Jerez C: Leon, Vazquez, Swihart, Holaday, Romanski, Butler 1B: Ramirez, Shaw, Swihart, Pablo, Holt, Travis, Longhi (not 2017: Ockimey) 2B: Pedroia, Betts, Moncada, Holt, Hernandez, Marrero (not 2017: Dubon) SS: Bogaerts, Hernandez, Holt, Marrero (not 2017: Dubon) 3B: Bogaerts, Shaw, Moncada, Holt, Hernandez, Pablo, Rutledge, (Swihart?), (not 2017: Devers) LF: Betts, Benintendi, Young, Bradley, Swihart, Holt (not 2017: Basabe) CF: Betts, Bradley, Benintendi, Young, Holt RF: Betts, Bradley, Benintendi, Young, Holt, Swihart DH: Ramirez, Young, Moncada, Pablo, Castillo, Witte

Well, they did have the best second half numbers in the AL.

They have attitude issues beyond even the Sale mess. I'm not saying the GM will decide to reboot, but I think they should.

The White Sox should blow up their whole team and go for a total rebuild. They have some great trading chips (Sale, Quintana, Robertson, Abreu, and Frazier), but they have way too many holes to plug and be competitive.. It might be hard for them to realize this. We happen to need players at all 5 of these players' positions.

What I remember most about that series was the decision to use VMart over VTek as Lester's personal catcher. Yeah, Buch gave us 5 good IP and bard went 2 scoreless innings, then the roof caved in. Payback for the Hendu HR, I guess. Wagner and Papelbon let up 5 runs in 1.2 innings, and we lost 7-6.

My point was that even if he was a top 3 closer in the game, he was being paid FA money, so why give up 2 good prospects? We could have waited a year and got Jansen or Chapman and saved the kids for a another trade. Until now, I have never used Kimbrel's disappointing 2016 performance as an argument against the trade, but his performance has certainly brought more posters over to my side.

Kimbrel's contract was the main reason I hated the trade. We gave up 3 nice prospects for a RP'er! Then, the RP'er we got was being paid close to FA market money. I know we needed a closer, but the deal was just plain wrong. (I know- I've beaten the dead horse often.)

Agreed, but these guys have egos bigger than their contracts.

In mind, nobody is untouchable, but clearly there are guys you try very hard to hold onto. Here's my list of who to keep (in order): (last controlled year) 1) Betts (2020-I might try to lock him up soon.) 2) Benintendi (2022- He's got several more years of team control than Bogey & Bradley) 3) Bradley (2020- Hope for more consistency) 4) Bogey (2019- just 3 yrs left- Dubon in the wings) 5) ERod (2021 or 2022- still has enormous upside) 6) Moncada (??- still has top value) 7) Porcello (2019- high priced but indispensable) 8) Pedey (2021- still a force but will decline) 9) Groome (??- far away but with a lot of promise) 10) Kopech (??- may be ready by mid 2017) 11) Swihart (??- I feel many GM want this kid.) 12) Devers (?? May be blocked.) 13) Wright (2020- 4 years is nice) 14) Vazquez (2020- hope his offense pick up) 15) Pomeranz (2018 at a low cost) 16) Ramirez (2018 or 2019 w vesting option) 17) Leon (2019- less years than Swi & Vaz) 18) C Smith (2020) 19) Kimbrel (2017 or 2018) 20) Price (2018 or 2022 -opt out) With three catchers in my top 17 and the catcher situation in MLB at a near alltime low, I'm pretty sure that if a blockbuster is made, Swihart or Vazquez will be included. With Swihart's value higher at catcher, I think he's the one to go.With 3B in question, one could argue for keeping both Moncada and Devers until we know which one we want. I'm thinking we don't have that luxury. We are going to have to choose one and trade the other. Depending on who our trading partner is and if they want a more immediate payoff or not, I'm thinking we may get a 1 year bridge at 3B and go with Devers. Moncada has tremendously high trade value. I'm not devaluing these kids, but I think it might make more sense to trade Moncada and Swihart as part of a package to get an ace type pitcher. I think those two offer a great start to a phone call. I'm hoping the White Sox back off their demands for ML talent (JBJ) and look to the long view. They have a lot of pieces we could use, and we have plenty of young talent to offer. If we can get them to back off any of my top 5 players, I'd go all out to get Quintana (or Sale), Robertson and Todd Frazier. Maybe they'd take Moncada, Swihart, Shaw, Kopech, Basabe, Owens and Johnson. Maybe not.

I think this might be the plan, but I doubt Chapman or Jansen come here without assurances they will close. If we give them that, the second later, Kimbrel demands a trade.

...and if he lets up 5 ERs in 3 IP, what's he worth? I doubt one game makes a big difference, as I think Buch's option will be taken either way.

The first thing I would do is look hard at the manager and coaching staff. What we have seen at the end of this season is a collapse of the team and I hope it doesn't end Sunday for Ortiz, but we have played poorly. Starting pitching, closer, hitting and even field play are all suspect. It is worth asking why this should occur and who should be held accountable? Sometimes teams just slump at the same time and at the wrong time. Maybe we are reading into this "collapse" more than what is really there. We all knew this team had holes. My contention was that we had less holes than other AL teams and more team depth to deal with the holes we had than most AL teams (Wright, Shaw, Leon, Beni, Young, Holt, Hernandez, Vazquez, Moncada...). We had a very good season, but ran into a buzz saw in Cleveland. Let's hope we can turn it around, but if we don't, I'm not sure we will need to do some kind of major overhaul to be set to go farther next year. I know the loss of Papi is terrifying. Losing Uehara, Ziegler and Tazawa from an already inconsistent pen is pretty frightening as well, but this team has over $30M to spend and other assets to deal to plug the few holes we have. We also have Carson Smith returning and hopes of Wright & Pomeranz having full, healthy seasons. Clearly, JBJ, Bogaerts, Leon and Shaw have fallen into a funk at the plate. Perhaps Shaw and Leon are returning to their ability levels, but JBJ and Bogaerts appear to be better so need to be worked with for next year and hopefully return to what I perceive is a higher ability level at the plate. Perhaps, they need to work on their stamina. They both look tired. A note of caution is that be very careful about bringing in ace pitchers on big, long term contracts. We have Price now who is more of a 3rd starter than an ace. Kimbrel is another story. Great stuff but wild. Also, be wary of bringing in older field players and hitters on big, long term contracts. Sale & Quintana have very low cost contracts. With that said, I would be willing to trade away Swihart, Shaw, Johnson and Owens and roster players like HIll, Hannigan,Rutledge and Marrero. All of them together won't bring back much, except for Swihart. Hill is FA, and Hanigan's option will likely not be offerd. In the relief area I would trade Elias, Abad, Workman and Ramirez. I would be very reluctant to trade JBJ as he still has a high upside potential. The deal would need to be very enticing to let got of him. I would keep Devers for the time being as he may fill a need at 3rd, depending on how Moncada works out. I think there's a significant chance we deal either Moncada or Devers this winter. Quintana would be my SP target. We do already have a serviceable rotation so someone would wind up being pushed out. Don't know who that would be. Maybe ERod would be part of the deal to get Quintana (and hopefully Robertson too) Have looked at Robertson and I assume he is one of your targets for setup man in the 7th or 8th. Smith is returning for surgery so maybe Barnes or Hembree would fill in but Scott is a lefty or Pomeranz would fit as a long reliever. Don't forget Buch and Kelly as pen candidates. As far as lineup at the start of the season is concerned, I am assuming we don't trade JBJ away and we keep Young. Much more realistic than my blockbuster trade and mega signings. I can see us signing Beltran for DH and OF depth. EE will sign elsewhere. Lineup: 1. Pedey 2nd 2. Beni lf 3. Betts rf 4. Beltran DH 5. Rameriz 1st 6. Bogaerts SS 7. JBJ cf 8. Frazier 3rd (on your advice) 9. Leon c Remaining 25 man roster: 10. Young of 11. Henrnadez 2nd, SS 12. Holt of, if 13. Vazquez c Other reserves: Moncada 2nd, 3rd Travis 1st Dubon SS Devers 3rd Holaday c On the longer term, the hope is that Moncada can make the jump during the year and be a solid contributor after the all star break. If we do lose JBJ, then I wouldn't plan on playing Beltran in LF. Holt would be a better choice. Getting any free agent will be a competitive situation and DD is the guy who we want to make favorable trades and acquisitions for us. The jury is still out on DD for me.

Guys like JBJ don't come around very often. True, but guys like Sale or Quintana don't fall off trees either.

No rush. I'd prefer to keep JBJ, but you have to give to get, and Quintana is a gem at a low cost.

Teams are up and down all the time, oldtimer. You know that better than any of us young sprouts. Shortly before going 1-8, we were 11-0. Surely, recent past records are not very good predictors of near future events.