moonslav59

I'm still not worried about our offense. I think it's just a team slump coupled with coming up against a few pitchers having very good nights. I sill think our biggest needs are SP'er and RP'er.

Last year, there were only about 5 or 6 teams surely out of it by the deadline, and with parity the way it is and the wild card opportunity, I doubt there are many GM who view themselves as out of it next year. I know teams would love to have Espinoza and Devers, but with them so far away from MLB and their vale still somewhat speculaive, I'm not sure we'd get back what I think these two are worth. Now, I realize you have to give a lot to get top quality pitching under team control for 3+ years at a reasonable cost. I realize a package of Swihart, Devers, Travis, Kopech plus one or two from Lakins, Dubon, Chavis, Basabe, Light, T Ball.... might not get the type of pitcher both of us are wishing for, and maybe the need to add Espinoza or Benintendi is a sure thing. I'd have to see who the pitcher is, before I agree to that big of a futures dump. Concerning your list of 4 guys above, I'm not sure on the years of team control on these guys, but if it's 3 1/2 + years, I'd seriously consider offering Swihart, Espinoza or Benintendi, Devers and 2-3 others from my list above (basically anyone but Moncada). You are right about GMs valuing players much differently than us fans here. One example was the rumors of so many GMs calling about JBJ. Some fans severely devalued JBJ after just 500 PAs of poor offense at the ML level. GMs look beyond certain size sample sizes and listen to their scouts.

I'm thinking beyond this year, and am willing to trade some of our extended future (in prospects) for a solid pitcher under team control for 3 1/2+ years at a decent cost and age. Once Papi retires, we're going to have to find new ways to win, and improving our rotation significantly seems like the best way to do that. Getting a decent 4th starter type is never my idea of a good plan, and usually if he's just a 2 month rental.. I'm tired of the Jake Peavys (who was maybe a #3), Aaron Cooks, Franklin Morales, Zach Stewarts, Eric Bedards, Brad Pennys, John Smoltzs and Paul Byrds. These guys rarely make a difference.

1) I view Fernandez as an ace, so we may be arguing semantics on ace vs solid #2. I view an ace as a top 30 MLB pitcher or a top 15 AL pitcher. That being said, I'd be fine with a solid #2, whcich might mean a top 20 out of 30 #2, so basically, I'd be fine with a top 50 pitcher or maybe even a top 75 pitcher that is young and is promising enough to get better. 2) We should make the playoffs by just adding a solid RP'er and dependable #4 SP'er, but if we are to seriously try for a championship this year, Papi's last year, then we'll need more than that to be one of the top 3 favorites.

Usually the team goal, from a management perspective, is to try and improve your weakest links, but this is not done in a vacuum. If we tried to improve on catcher offense, we'd likely lose in catcher defense (in the widest sense of the word), so although Vaz may never reach MLB positional "average" on offense with Vaz behind the plate, I think we will always have an overall plus due to the defense and intangibles Vaz brings with his game. As a general manager, I think the goal is to strive to improve your weakest links first. I do not think our weakest position is catcher. I think it is more like this: 1) #2 type SP'er 2) Solid RP'er 3) #4 type SP;er, even if just as insurance against ERod. 4) LF (Benintendi?) 5) Looking ahead after Papi retires- 3B/1B/DH (Moncada?) 6) Maybe just maybe offense from the catching position * *If we keep Swihart around, we can either have offense at the catcher position with him playing catcher, or if he plays LF and we have Hanigan or Leon on the roster, we can afford to PH for Vazquez as many games as we need.

Agreed. I have never said a word about Papi being clean. It's pretty obvious he did something while in the D. R. and probably afterwards as well- perhaps when it was not illegal.

He did rise to .475 and .500 his final two years with MN. Sure, one could use is big increase in SLG% as evidence for PED use, but many players improve their SLG% after age 25/26 without PED use. Note: Papi did hit 18 HRs in just 303 ABs in 2001 with MN and 20 HRs in 412 ABs in 2002 with MN. If you pro-rate those HRs to 600 ABs, he'd be close to 40 HRs, so it's not like hitting 31, 41, 47 and then 54 with Boston immediately after the move to Boston is wacky out of line. It's not like Brady Anderson's one year spike and return to oblivion.

I was talking about people arguing about "he said-she said" ad nauseum, not the Nomar-PED issue. Please try to keep up.

At least I'm whining about a baseball topic, instead of whining about a person whining.

I wish we could keep this thread about the Red Sox and not get into personal issues.

His Triple-A results really haven't helped his cause, though, and for me are more alarming than anything he's done or hasn't done in the majors. When JBJ lost his job and was demoted to Pawtucket, he raked all season long and basically forced them to give him another shot (and thank the gods he did); unless Rusney can find a way to do the same, I feel like his Red Sox career may be over. Well, the Sox have given some players a shot even after recent struggles in AAA. Understood, the circumstances were different as we were out of contention, but Travis Shaw as having a horrible season (.249/.318/.356/.674) in Pawtucket last year, and he was handed a FT role on the big club. He also had a pretty bad second half of 2014 at Pawtucket: .254/.329/.410/.739. I feel there must have been something more than just performance issues at AAA that led to the DFA. Maybe a big part was trying to get his contratc off the luxury tax budget, but maybe there's more.

There's nobody on this winter's FA list. You have to give to get, and sometimes it hurts to give alot, and sometimes you get it wrong. I'm fine with taking the long look and not trading Moncada, Swihart, Espinoza and Benintendi, but it's going to be hard to acquire a difference maker SP'er, stay near the luxury tax limit and be the favorites to win the championship this year or next (without Papi). The choice has to be made, and like I've said. I'm happy either way- just don't play it half way by trading just Devers and scraps for a two month rental of questionable top quality. I think when you look at our top 4 prospects, trading Swihart (with Devers) makes the most sense. Our biggest needs both now and going forward seem to be ,,, SP (Espinoza) 3B/1B/DH (Moncada) LF (Benintendi While Devers plays 1B, he's too far away. While Swihart apparently can play LF, his greater value is to a team that doesn't have a good catcher. Add Travis, Kopech, owens, Johnson, Chavis and so on and maybe we can get more than just a decent 2 month rental. We need to get a pitcher under team control for over 3 years.

Yeah, the next guy they ask for is JBJ. I doubt any other GM is really high on Holt, Hernandez or Marrero. I doubt any GM is high on Owens, Elias, Johnson or Sullivan. I doubt any contending team would trade an ace for Swihart, Devers plus any prospect not named Moncada, Espinoza or Benintendi. We might not even get an ace for Swihart, Devers and Espinoza (plus mid levels). Non contending teams don't seem to have an ace (no wonder- that's why they are non contending in the first place). I don't see many choices. Can you name a few?

It amazes me how he can be having his career best year with feet like that! WOW!

The guy is a legend.

I think the Sox are 13-13 in games not started by Price, Wright and Porcello. I'm not trying to say I have any confidence in these guys. We do need another starter for sure, but so far our bats have carried our weak starters. Unfortunately, they've come up short a few too many times when our big three are pitching (like tonoght.)

How easy was it to "replace" ERod? And with who? It was obvious Sox management felt between Kelly, Buch, Owens, Johnson, Elias and Wright, we'd end up with 2 decent starters. We ended up with one that is doing great and zilch after that. I guess we shouldn't complain, since Wright has been a miracle, but we still are in need of another starter due to ERpd's injury. One can easily argue that planning for injury would have been nice, but the fact remains. We need a starter.

IP/GS 6.9 Wright 6.6 Price 6.3 Porcello 5.8 League Avg 5.7 Buch 5.2 ERod 3.7 Kelly

I'd give up a great young pitcher for those 4. I probably do it for 3 of these guys, however only if I was a non-contender. . The problem is twofold and may be insurmountable: 1) There are only a handful of teams that pretty much know they are not going to be winning a championship in the next 3-5 years and would be willing to trade any immediate hope they have at a near championship to greatly improve their odds at winning 3-5 or more likely 4-7 years from now. (Teams looking to win in the next 1-3 years will not look to trade an ace for better extended hopes.) 2) Of these handful of teams (maybe PHI, ATL, SDP, MN, OAK & CIN), not many have an ace-caliber young pitcher under team control for 4+ years (counting 2016) at a reasonable cost? You want specifics? If I was Billy Beane, I'd trade Gray for Swihart, Benintendi and Swihart. I don't think Devers would be needed, but maybe Owens or Johnson might be added. I'm not sure what Phily would want for Nola or Eickoff, but I'm not sure if either of them project as an ace. There's a lot of talk abour Teheran of the Braves, and if I was their GM, I'd trade him for 3 of those guys, but if I was the Sox, I'm not sure I would. I'd give Swihart, Devers and 2-3 mid-level guys but not 3 of our top 5 prospects. The other teams don't have anyone I think meets our needs. I seriously doubt we can lure a contending team to deal an ace without giving something MLB ready and of near top quality. As much as I hate to say it, I think what I want might be impossible to get.

LOL. Speaking of the rays, I read somewhere than Crawford may be a heading back to TB.

It would have been hard to sign two big FA starters and also pay for Kimbrel's contract. Plus Young did not come cheaply. My biggest fear is that we now have to go out and trade good prospects for a pitcher equal to or similar to a mid range starter that could have been signed last winter. I'm not talking Jordan Zimmerman at $22M a year, but more like Rich Hill $6M, Doug Fister $7M, or Bartolo Colon $7M, up to maybe as far as Mike Leake $16M x 5. We may end up trding for a SP'er still owed as much as some of the guys i listed above. Now, I realize some of those guys are not doing all that great, but I'm talking about maybe making an attempt at solving the problem we have now before it happened. I understand the philosophy was thinking we had so much "quantity" at the 5 slot that the hope was one or two would work out. It turns out Wright did work out, but he just took ERod's slot. The whole one from Owens, Johnson, Elias, Sullivan and others experiment has been a failure.

Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post Yes, my contention was we might have gotten a very nice SP'er for Swihart, Devers + the package we gave for Kimbrel. I'm really done arguing about Kimbrel and his contract. It's great to have a top 3 closer, and he will help us this year. It's certainly a valid point that we might have been able to get a decent starter for that package. What we have to consider is that they may have made a serious effort to trade for a starter but found that the only way they could land what they wanted, a cost-controlled TOTR starter, was to give up Betts or Bogey. I totally get that. Nobody other than maybe Sox management knows what we could have gotten for my suggested offer. Maybe Sox management never offered anyone that package, so we'll never know. If they did offer a similar package, in theory, I'd like to have known who we migth have gotten, so I could compare the benefits of having that guy and signing a FA closer or having Kimbrel as our closer (with his contract) and Buch/Kelly as our 4/5 starters (with their salaries). I didn't really want to get back into the Kimbrel debate, because I already made my point more often than was needed, but one major aspect was the money. Had we traded for a low cost young SP'er with my suggested offer and not had Kimbrel's plus maybe traded Buch due to having another quality SP'er. We may have been able to trade for or sign 2-3 RP'ers with those savings. If we kept Buch, we'd still have had over $10M to spend on RP'ers and still been at the same budget amount. So, it was more than just Kimbrel vs Salazar or Carrasco types: it was Kimbrel & Buch vs Salazar, Clippard & KRod or Benoit (or Madson/O'Day types). (minus Swihart & Devers, of course).

I can name 29.

Nice start by Price. We need him to be the ace we all hoped he'd be. OPS+ Sox leaders: 193 Ortiz 154 JBJ 142 Bogey 133 Young 126 Betts 114 Pedey 107 Shaw 94 HanRam 93 Swihart 76 Holt 46 Vaz 29 Hanigan We've had quite a few player contribute with plentiful RBIs this year. I know some of you hate to use the word "pace", but here's what some Sox players are on pace for this year in RBIs: Aprox 145 Ortiz 120 Betts 110 Bogey 110 JBJ 90 Ramirez 85 Shaw 70 Pedey We may end up with three 30 HR guys: Ortiz, Betts & JBJ!

I'm not sure it's all that big of a deal, unless it saves us $10+M on the luxury tax limit. I mean, whose 40 man roster spot is he protecting? Brentz? Coyle? Noe Ramirez? It's got to be an attempt to save on the luxury tax, otherwise, what would be the harm in giving him a little more time? How much time has Brentz had to win a slot on the 25 man roster? I'm not complaining about the move, but if we end up paying him to play elsewhere, I'd rather had had us keep him in the system a while longer. I'm not privy to what Sox management knows about Castillo; maybe they are 99.9% positive this kid is a flop, and even Brentz has a better chance than him...