moonslav59

...Just a moment back in time, Mookie was a second baseman, Now he's a very good RF, and in the running for the MVP. ... With a nice stop in CF along the way! I'm trying my best . I'm new to the board. lol Welcome!

Some different numbers.... Sox "Late and Close (L & C are Plate Appearances in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.) (40+ PAs unless noted) 1.150 Vazquez (18 PAs) 1.012 Hill (14 PAs) .908 Ortiz .832 Bogey .791 Shaw .771 Pedey .765 JBJ .757 Betts .696 Leon (22) .504 Young (18) .371 Ramirez .321 Holt (26) .220 Hanigan (13) High Leverage .998 Shaw .966 Bogey .966 Ortiz .955 Pedey .820 Leon (27) .770 Hanigan (18) .710 Betts .621 Ramirez .613 Swihart (20) .607 Vazquez (29) .573 JBJ .561 Young (27) .557 Hill .539 Holt .438 Rutledge (17) .354 Hernandez (15)

True, it was about his bat, but clearly nobody expected Beni to be a worse fielder in LF than the Brentz/Holt circus. That's what mattered on the defensive aspect of the call-up.

Can we agree on average silly?

I guess he has played 3B before in Cuba at age 16. Your point is well-taken. The protocol is for a player to learn his natural poisiton, and then, when he is ML ready, you begin to find a new position, if he is blocked. Since Moncada had no "natural position" the idea to move him to 3B takes on a whole new context.

But, he was hitting, and I thought you were with the crowd that thought he should not play 3B this year- no matter what- due to "protocol".

I was being sarcstic towards all the Dempster type pitcher supporters.

He's not a minus. Can we agree on average? He reminds me of Ellsbury. Not great reactions and routes to start out with, but his athleticism makes up for it.

I get your point, and I don't disagree, but I was just pointing out that your OBP argument could be challenged by most recent data. Mookie has the best SLG in recent days/weeks as well, so that is the point, I think you win with.

That's why they got Tito the great Erik Bedard who gave them 8 "mid rotation" starts like Dempster and PomPom.

Young was hurt. Brock and Bryce were doing HanRam imitations out there before the call-up.

He was more capable that Brentz & Holt. He was more capable than Bogey at 3B back in 2014. He was more capable than Swihart in LF earlier this year. The kid is a plsu defender in CF right now. He can handle LF in a pretty quick turnover time, but again, I wish they had moved him to LF earlier at AA.

They ran out of pitchers... No, they were there. They were just in the clubhouse having some beers. They had Beckett, Lackey, Lester, Buch and Wake. They had Papelbon, A Miller, Bard & Aceves when they were still good and more.

He had outside issues going on, so in his case his mastery "going away" taken within the context of his personal life and the clowns in the clubhouse, I still feel like he "lost it" at the end. I didn't mean in a permanent sense, but even good managers sometimes lose their players for stretches.

I could be wrong, but I thought you were one of the posters who said you don't promote a player and change his position within the same year. It was NOT you who called it a "silly idea" to even think about giving him reps at 3B this year, but you seemed to think following "protocol" was called for with Moncada. The issue really was about how quickly anyone thought Moncada could master AA and become near "ML ready". With a freak like Moncada, I felt we needed to keep the door open to the possibility he might surprise us. I did not call for him to be moved to 3B right away, but I caught flack for even suggesting he be given reps at 3B in practice "soon". Not the next day. Maybe not even the next week, but soon, based on the idea that with every game he played, he looked more and more "ready".

I don't disagree, but the timing of the call for him to bat 3rd came right when he was showing his normal late season surge, and his more recent OBP was among the best on the team. I would certainly not start Mookie at leadoff next April.

I was wrong in my assessment of Tito's overall record. I guess I just let his last year stick in my craw.

I remember quite a few 1.2 IP 8H 8ER 3BB games for some of our starters.

I disagree. I think any plus defensive CF'er can be (and usually is) a capable corner OF'er in a very short period of time. Beni was certainly equal or better than the Brentz-Holt "Bad News Bears" in LF at the time of his call-up, even if he was not fully at top readiness. Besides, I called for him getting more time in LF earlier. That's been my mantra- "sooner rather than later".

I agree, I did under-rate Tito, but he did "lose the team" near the end. Maybe no manager could have kept those clowns in check. I do think we have had some bad managers. We've had some okay managers. We've had fewer good ones that I'd have wished for, and I still think that since I started following the Sox in 1970, we've had more bad/decent/okay than good, very good/great.

+ Yes, that makes perfect sense to most players. The timetable guideline was hastened when Moncada started showing incredible adjustment ability at his new level. The kid now has a higher AA OPS than single A after just the 36 game mark! You have to make adjustments all the time in baseball, even to those long and tried traditions. Imagine if the Sox of old had made Fred Lynn wait until 1976!

No I think the argument is being changed here in hindsight. What teams do is develop a guy at his natural position and move him if there is a hole to fill and the guy is ready or close to ready. What we were arguing against then was the notion that because it looked like Moncada was blocked and his position on the team would be another position that he should be moved in advanced. I disagree. I felt Moncada was super close to being ready with his hitting and emotional place. Some here felt that, no matter what, you don't promote a guy to a new level AND change his position within a year. It goes against "traditional protocol", they said. If I thought Moncada was a fulkl year away, I would not have argued for giving him reps at 3B. It's still 100% true that you don't move guys to a position based off of what the team needs might be in a year or two. That's not how development works and it never will be. Nothing which has transpired has changed that argument. They likely view Moncada as close to ready and see 3B as a viable option, and I'm sure there are other factors involved in that decision besides Pedey playing 2nd such as Shaws struggles recently. Yes, Moncada is very close to ready. Some of us felt that and believed that a month or longer ago. Now, once the move has been made, the "follow the protocol" posters are calling him a "freak" and saying things like "there's no way anyone could have known he was a freak 1-3 months ago." The Sox broke protocol with the "freak" Beni by making him our first player to be in the bigs a year after he was drafted since Fred Lynn. They also changed him from CF to LF shortly before the promotion. I'd have preferred he had been given more time in LF before the call-up, but the adjustment from CF to LF is much different than from 2B to 3B. My argument is that when you clearly have someone special or "freakish", it's worse to wait too long to give him etime to learn his position before thrusting him into MLB with little practice at his new position than to be overly cautious when it's clear he's near "ready". Bogey was given 10 days to learn 3B before joining the big team in the middle of a pennant race. JBJ was moved to LF quickly, so a guy with some LF experience already and a worse CF'er defensively (Ellsbury) could stay in his comfort zone. Swihart was moved to LF quickly and promptly got hurt. Betts was moved pretty quickly from 2B to OF then the bigs. Some moves have "worked" other are questionable. My position has always been, when a guy looks near ready, freak or not, move the guy to his likely position "sooner rather than later". Moncada is a phenom, that still validates our argument even if it is a month or two later. It's not like teams sit down and have a schedule of the exact date a guy is ready or will switch positions. It's not as if the team has it marked May 25th 2018 Devers will move to 1B. It was a silly argument then, and it still is now.....and no one here ever doubted the ideal that he would/could eventually move off of position the argument was when it should happen and at that point in time Moncada was in Single A.....he was in A ball!!!!!!!!! I thought the debate started when he was in AA for a few weeks.

Taz is a FA, so I don't give him or Uehara any higher chance of being here next year than other FA RP'ers. I think we start with this: Closer: Kimbrel RP2/back-up closer: _________ RP3: C Smith RP4: ________ RP5: Barnes Lefty RP6/7: Ross/Abad/Elias/ converted SP'er? Owens/Johsnon Righty RP6/7: Kelly/Hembree/Workman/NRamirez/Martin We may see Ziegler and Taz back, but there are other FA RP'ers out there and trade candidates as well. I think we could get by with one really good RP'er acquisition, since Smith should be back, but if we just get one, we better boost the rotation. FA List: John Axford, Joaquin Benoit, Jonathan Broxton, Buddy Carlyle, Brett Cecil, Santiago Casilla Aroldis Chapman, Jesse Chavez, Tim Collins, Aaron Crow Wade Davis *, Michael Dunn, Dana Eveland, Neftali Feliz, Jason Grilli *, Luke Hochevar Greg Holland, J.P. Howell Kenley Jansen, Casey Janssen, Kevin Jepsen, Brandon League Boone Logan, Javier Lopez, Brian Matusz Mark Melancon, Joe Nathan, Josh Outman, Yusmeiro Petit, Cesar Ramos Francisco Rodriguez *, Sergio Romo, Marc Rzepczynski, Fernando Salas, Sergio Santos Joe Smith, Craig Stammen Drew Storen, Josh Tomlin, Jordan Walden * Brad Ziegler

Beni was also ready defensively at the position of need (LF).

I'm not against trading HanRam. I wanted to last winter, and I even said that if he hits over .900 in 2016, I'd trade him in a heartbeat, before his stock fell again. The issue is what can we get for him. If we can get $12M in salary relief, that may be all well and good, but the fanatsy of getting Encarnacion on at 3 or maybe even a 4 year deal is just that- fantasy. This is his big payday. The guy has been over .900 more years in a row than Papi, but he may not age like Papi. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have him on our team, but with paying HanRam's portion, probably writing off Pablo, Castillo and Craig for the remainder of their deals and Encarnacion at $25M+ x 5 or 6 years or maybe even 7 years, would kill out budget for many years. I'm not for giving soon to be 37 year old, Ziegler a 3 year deal either. I'm not even sure I want him for 1 or 2 years at what he'll get. Experience is a plus in the pen, but there are other RP'ers out there.