moonslav59

I assume chock is choke, but maybe you are thinking of a jock and a choke combined.

Look up the definition of "proven".

That's not the debate. It's totally different than Price = Clay

Anybody know what DD's arb philosophy was with DET?

If we could have done what we did with Castillo to Pablo, we would have already. Castillo would have to make himself into a can't miss player to even be considered for adding to the 40 man roster. He's in purgatory.

Thanks for the info. Red Sox Avoid Arbitration With Bradley, Bogaerts, Five Others By Steve Adams | January 13, 2017 at 4:12pm CDT Adding to their previously reported deals, the Red Sox have announced agreement with all but two of their arb-eligible players. Salaries were reported by MLB.com’s Ian Browne for the players avoiding arb: shortstop Xander Bogaerts gets $4.5MM ($5.7MM projection), utilityman Brock Holt receives $1.95MM ($1.7MM projection), righty Joe Kelly will earn $2.8MM ($2.6MM projection), catcher Sandy Leon takes home $1.3MM (the same as his projection), lefty Robbie Ross gets $1.825MM (just $25K over his projection), and new righty Tyler Thornburg will earn $2.05MM (just under his $2.2MM projection). The Red Sox and center fielder Jackie Bradley Jr. have avoided arbitration by agreeing to a one-year deal worth $3.6MM, tweets Crasnick. Bradley, 27 in April, enjoyed far and away his best big league season in 2016, hitting .267/.349/.486 with 26 home runs, nine steals and brilliant defense. He topped his $3.3MM projection by $300K and will be arbitration-eligible three more times as a Super Two player before hitting free agency upon completion of the 2020 season. Luxury tax implications as compared to projections: Bogey +$1.200M Thorn +$.195M +$1.395M JBJ -$.300M Holt -$.295M Kelly -$.200M Ross -$.025M Leon (same) -0.820M Net: +575K added to our flex spending budget Still have Pom and Abad to go.

What do the Red Sox and Toronto Maple Leafs have in common?

The guy does not have a single K in the playoffs! He's an absolute failure!

What do all of these players have in common? Pedro Alvarez Brandon Belt Yasmani Grandal Alex Bregman Carson Fulmer

I totally agree, but June was actually his "middle" performance month last year: ERA/WHIP Month 5.76/ 1.281 April 4.62/ 1.179 May 4.08/ 1.261 June 4.08/ 1.122 SEPT 2.80/ 1.330 July 2.93/ 1.100 AUG His ERA on June 1st was 5.11. It was 4.74 by the end of June, 4.26 by the end of July and 3.97 by AUG 31st. I'd say his first 7 starts were what hurt his numbers, and even that sample size included a couple good games. His ERA was 6.75 after 7 games. His ERA in the 28 starts after May 7th? 3.39 ERA

Very true, but even if Price does poorly over his next handful of playoff games, can we still judge him as a choke? What if Clemens never made it to the playoffs again? He'd have been judged as a choke by many. Like he had some sort of mental or emotional deficiency. Barry Bonds was labeled a choke after his first 25 playoff games. He now had a career .936 playoff OPS. Beckett started off like he was going to go down in MLB history as one of the greatest postseason pitchers of all time. His first 70+ IP with FLA and BOS in 2007 were mesmerizing. He was Mr. Money. His last 21 IP? 36 H+BB+HBP and 18 ERs for a 7.71 ERA and a whole new memory of how he did "when it counts".

Let me ask you this, if a pitcher did poorly, every time he pitched on even days in August, would you put much faith in that as a predictor or what will happen when he starts this August 2nd or 4th? Of course not. I get the pressure thing, and you very well could be correct. Price might just plain buckle under pressure. However, couldn't his 15 games in the playoffs (actually just 9 starts) be sort of like even days in August? It could, right? Maybe? Now, if a pitcher eventually ends up with 500 IP on even days in August, my guess is his numbers would be close to his career norm or at least to his other August games. BTW, if they were not, I still wouldn't say he chokes on even days in August. I know you are not trying to denigrate Price, but I get the feeling others are. When posters like me often say "small sample size", it does not mean we don't think it counts. Sucking in the playoffs DOES MATTER. It sucks! I was very disappointed that we lost with Price and Porcello starting for us. To me, what bothers me, is the next step people take...maybe out of frustration of anger over losing an important game, but they sometimes label the player as a failure or a bum based on just a very small sample of that players total portfolio. Even Papi has had bad playoff games and series. What if all of those happened in his first 15 games and he was judged to be a choke or "absolute failure" as Slasher called Price? Nonsense, right? Price signed for 7 years. He did not have one of his better years in 2016, but does this stand out as an absolute failure or a complete void of reaching expectations? ERA- over last 6 years: 90, 66, 86, 87, 66, 60, 90 His 90 ERA- might be tied for his worst in 6 years, but it is within 5% of his performances in 3 of the previous 5 seasons. Same with WAR: 4.2, 4.4, 5.0, 6.0, 6.4, 4.5 I'm far away from labeling Price a choke or a disappointment. I learned my lesson with Lackey. Opponents have a career .655 OPS against Price. In the regular season, he's done better "when it counts" and this scattered sample size is much larger than 15 playoff games: Late & Close: .607 (501 PA) High Leverage: .648 (1113 PA) 2 outs/RISP: .639 (608 PAs) Playoffs: 281 PAs

More signings today almost all are below the MLBTR projections.

Or, after his 2004 ALCS? (14H and 9 BB in 13 IP vs the Yanks with a 6.23 ERA) Or, his WS with the Phillies in '09? (9H & 4 BB in 10 IP with a 6.30 ERA) His playoff ERA is about 50 points higher than his career ERA. Nobody is tearing him down over 96 scattered playoff innings... rightfully so.

I disagree. We all saw the horrible results from Price's 3 inning outing. It is what it is. It sucked. He sucked. My problem is that some judge his total season based on that 3 inning sample size. Others may included his previous scattered small sample size playoff opportunities and judge based on that. That's a little better than just 3 IP. When I say "judge" I mean, I'm okay with people saying he sucked in that game, or he has sucked in almost all of his playoff games. My issue is when blanket statements are made like "He was an absolute failure". Or, "He's a 5th starter now" Or, comparing him to Buch. Those are more definitive proclamations that imply that this is who he is. His whole body of work is taken down a few notches based on one or a collection of scattered tiny sample sizes. Now, we have Slasher arbitrarily placing extra importance on opening day and home opening day. I could arbitrarily say the most important Price games last year were his last 14 starts, where he pitched poorly just twice.

My Packers went through a very long stretch of pathetic play. The Reggie White signing turned things around.

It's not a sign of weakness to admit when you are wrong. Quite the opposite, in fact.

You guys deserve all the acclaim. It's not easy staying that good for all these years in an era of parity. Someone asked why people hate the Pats. It's the same with the Yanks: you guys win too much! Best of luck, until you meet my Pack. FEAR the PACK!

Price was line of the 10 best pitchers in the AL. Yeah, 7th in WAR (in the AL) and 8th in FFIP (see below). If his post-season troubles are attributable to anything, it's probably that he throws over 200 IP every year and is more worn out come October. ... I'm not judging him or anyone else on small sample sizes. I was just saying his perception took a big hit over those measly 3 IP vs CLE. His very slow start out of the gate really hurt his final numbers, but the numbers (other than WAR and FIP metrics) showed a pretty significant downturn last year. 15th in the AL in ERA- at 90. 12th in WHIP at 1.20 ERA- 2015: 60 2016: 90 WHIP 2015: 1.08 2016: 1.20 WAR 2015: 6.4 2016: 4.5 FIP 2015: 2.78 2016: 3.60 This all contributed to the feeling that he missed expectations by a considerable amount BEFORE that one 3 inning playoff appearance. I'm optimistic. He came on strong after those fist 10 starts of 2016. I don't put much value or devalue on any 3 IP performance, and after 230 IP last season, one could say it might have been fatigue related and not some choke complex. It would be nice to try and reduce his IP this year, but with a pen like ours, many posters are looking to get more IP out of our starters- not less (thanks to Sale replacing Buch & Co.

come on notin. he gave up FIVE earned runs in 3 innings. And, that's what makes him an absolute failure?

Back to Sox baseball... Now that teams are signing their arb players before reaching the arbs, here's a look at our team leading 10 arb players (with MLBTR's arb estimates): Red Sox (10) Fernando Abad (5.073) – $2.0MM Robbie Ross Jr. (4.100) – $1.8MM Joe Kelly (4.029) – $2.6MM Drew Pomeranz (4.013) – $4.7MM Tyler Thornburg (3.057) – $2.2MM Brock Holt (3.052) – $1.7MM Xander Bogaerts (3.042) – $5.7MM **Brandon Workman (3.018) – $600K Jackie Bradley Jr. (2.150) – $3.3MM Sandy Leon (2.149) – $1.3MM The Mets also have 10 arbs and I think a couple teams have 9 players. **Workman already signed for $635K.

It's MVP that needs to apologize. I never used the term he claimed he was making fun of me for using.

http://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/13747-Official-NFL-thread See for yourself: I never used the word "cheatriots". I answered a question about why people hate the Patriots, and as a Packer fan, my reply upset the sensitivities of Patriots fans rather like Yankee fans get twisted up when we say they "bought championships" or call them "cheaters". I never said "cheatriots" but somebody here is still sticking to his delusion.

Good point, but the perception left was a bad one. I don't think his season was as bad it it appeared, but I'm hopeful he does better this year.

Lots of players are signing to avoid arbs. Tis the season. Will DD follow Theo and Ben's pattern of just about always avoiding arbs? Seems like numbers are coming in a little lower than MLBTR's estimates, so maybe Abad will be cheaper than the $2M they projected.