moonslav59

I think it would sell, and with a name like that, how can we lose?

More upside in cost control and years of control, but Buch has a proven upside of performance that is nearly unmatched by anyone on our staff, even if just for a couple of half seasons. I'm glad we got out from under the contract.

You answered your own question. Without sale, we keep Buch.

Maybe butterscotch schnapps and Bacardi 151?

Then, if true, with JBJs better arm, they should be swapped.

Do you really think Wake was near the third worst pitcher since 1956?

Since we got basically nothing for him, holding onto Buch for longer might have netted us a better prospect, assuming he stayed healthy and pitched well. However, if he got hurt or struggled, we'd have missed out on any chance of getting someone to pay $13.5M. It was a good trade, given Buch's inconsistency and injury history. That $13.5 M will save us much more later, and allow us to get someone even better for a third of a season at a cheaper price, if needed.

I'm pretty certain JBJ is our best defensive CF'er, but I agree Betts is better overall. Beni is largely unknown, especially with CF defense.

I was too, but $13.5M is a lot of money. In theory, since the trade deadline is 2/3 through the season, we could trade for two players making $18M annually each and the cost would be $12M total.

Agreed, but McCutchen looks to maybe be in serious decline. JBJ looks to be on the rise and is a better defensive CF'er. I'm not for trading JBJ, but I like him more than A. M right now. McCutchen's decline: OPS: .952> .889> .766 UZR/150: -13.7> -6.1> -23.2 WAR: 8.4> 6.8> 5.8> 0.7 JBJ: -0.3> 0.5> 2.4> 4.8

So, our high ceiling farm now looks like this: Age 17: Mata 18: Groome & Raudes 19: 20: Devers 21: Possibles: 17: 18: 19: Y Aybar 20: D Herndnaez, Tyler Hill 21: Dalbec, Chatham, Ockimey, Bautista, Nogosek, K Washington 22: Lakins, Cosart 23: Travis 24: Hernandez, Ysla 25: Martin 26: Johnson, R Scott Long shots: TBall 22, Chavis 21, Shepherd 24

From what I heard, we were just barely under the luxury tax limit before the trade, but any in-season call ups could change the number as minor-league salaries would be given a raise to ML levels. This trade gives is maybe $14-15M in flex space. If we trade Abad, we'd add another estimated $2M. He's out of options anyways, and I like Hembree more. I'm not sure Elias is any better than Abad, but he can start. That would put us at $16-17M in luxury tax limit space. Remember, although we lose $12M next winter with Young and Moreland's deals, we have to factor in arb raises and Kimbrel's luxury tax number going from $10.5M to $13M and sale's going from $6.5M to $12M. These will more than eat up that $12M and any left over from our surplus from 2017. Now, if we reset the luxury tax, like it looks like we will this year, then going over next year will not be as costly. Next year's FA class is much better, I might add.

As it stood, we were looking at possibly losing all our out-of-options RP'ers by opening day, or at least when C Smith returns. This allows one more to stay, so I don't see a great loss in pen depth. I do see a bigger loss in Sp'er depth. Here's how I see our pen shaping up as of now: Closer: Kimbrel RP2: Thornburg RP3: (C Smith) Kelly RP4: (Kelly) Pom or Wright RP5: (Pom or Wright) Barnes RP6: (Barnes) Ross RP7: (Ross) Abad, Hembree, Elias (all out of options) or Scott

I agree on the predictive nature of high K pitchers and xFIP, but there are exceptions to every model. Maddux only had 2 seasons with a K rate over 7.1 and none over 7.8. His decent FIP was fueled by leading the league in BB/9 nine times in his career (1.8 career) and his low H rate 8.5/9 and HR rate 0.6/9. These are very rare numbers for a lower K guy. His final career ERA was 3.16. His FIP was 3.26. (xFIP was not around for his peak seasons.) Wake had a long career. His ERA was 4.41, but he pitched in a hitters park and faced tougher opponents than the average pitcher. His career ERA- was 96. However, his FIP was 4.72! (108 FIP-). That's ridiculous. Even his 1995 season going 16-8 with a 2,95 ERA and 1.01 WHIP, he ended up with a 4.53 FIP. There is a serious flaw in that. RA Dickey's great season with a 2.73 ERA showed a 3.27 FIP. At least that was closer. ERA/FIP Jim Bouton 3.57/.3.83 RA Dickey 4.01/4.38 T Candiotti 3.73/.391 Joe Niekro 3.59/.379 Wilbur Wood 3.24/3.37 Hoyt Wilhelm 2..52/3.06 Charlie Hough 3.75/4.29 Phil Niekro 3.35/3.63 The best K pitchers (1000+ IP since 1956) Randy J 3.30/3.20 K Wood 3.69/.390 C Sale 3.04/3.06 Pedro 2.95/2.91 Scherzer 3.40/3.28 Kershaw 2.37/2.55 N Ryan 3.19/2,97 (despite his 4.67 BB/9 rate) Koufax 2.76/2.67 . To me, ERA- is a better way of determining who did better than FIP Best pitchers with 2000+ IP since 1956: ERA- 67 Pedro 70 Clemens 75 Koufax 75 W Ford 75 Johnson 76 Maddux 76 Halladay 78 Palmer 78 Gibson FIP 2.67 Koufax 2.89 Gibson 2.91 Pedro 2.96 Chance 2.97 Ryan (Come on!) 3.02 Drysdale 3.02 Matlack 3.30 Seaver 3.04 McDowell 3.04 Marichal According to FIP, the worst pitchers since 1956 are: 4.88 Jeff Suppan 4.82 Steve Trachel 4.77 Wakefield 4.70 Garland 4.65 W Williams 4.52 B Arroyo 4.48 J Moyer 4.48 K Rogers

I thought we could at least get a single A player with a little more promise than Tobias, who wasn't listed on the Phillies top 30 prospect list, but this trade does not surprise me at all. It may hurt to lose veteran starting pitcher depth, but with the salary flexibility added, we can trade for a Peavy or Bedard type mid season, or we can sign a few vets to minor league deals and cross our fingers. I can see why not many of us have much hope in Owens or Johnson, but there's still a chance one can be helpful, or we could try Elias or Kelly as spot starters, if needed..

Thanks, Hugh. As always, very informative stuff. I realize he's a far away prospect, and some posters put little value on them, but we do.

Yes, and with a strong farm still intact. That's the genius of Theo. That's what he did here early on, and he admitted it got away from him in his later Boston years. I think Ben tried to create a balance, but his FA signings flopped after 2013. Vic fell off a cliff, Dempster retired, Napoli declined and HanRam/Pablo were worse than horrible.

True enough, but even as Theo admitted, the Sox were not a great team when Ben took over. They had serious contract issues, and recent draft picks were not as good as beforehand. Yes, Ben messed up with the initial Lester offer and the Panda signing, but he was not handed the same team and farm that DD was. Had HanRam and Panda just hit like their previous 2-3 years, we wouldn't have finished last. What caused the collapse of 2011-2012? I guess Valantine could be a big part of the blame, and I'm not sure he was Ben's 1st pick. I still think the Dodger dump trade was one of the best trades ever made by the Sox. Without it, we don't win in 2013. I hated losing Lester, and that can be blamed on Ben, if blame has to be assigned, but once it was clear he was going to be a FA and the 2012 season was lost, the big purge took guts and was the right thing to do. We have Porcello, ERod, Kelly and Hembree to show for it. Once could argue we got C Smith as well (via Miley via de la Rosa & Webster). I'm pretty certain Ben was going to pull a prospect blockbuster and sign a big FA SP'er after 2015, but we'll never know. I'm glad we have Sale, Porcello and to a lesser extent Price. I'm glad Ben and DD held onto Betts, Bogey, Bradley & Beni. I'm glad DD held onto Devers as 3B/1B is our major concern going forward.

Yes, but he also was greatly aided by the strong farm he built first, and he kept many of them, including many good prospects still on the farm. When the 2017 rankings come out, let's compare the Cubs and Sox rankings.

I disagree. While I see the predictive value to FIP and xFIP, I don't think it is an accurate measure of how well a pitcher did in a season. There are plenty of examples of low K pitchers who had repeatable records of getting batters out at higher rates than high K pitchers. FIP penalizes those types of pitchers...like Wright. Knuckleballers are usually not high K pitchers, but some have had long productive careers.

The farm rebuilding has begun! LOL!!!!

A few thoughts... 1) I figured a trade like this would happen, but I expected the other team to be a contender. Maybe Philly will trade Buch at the deadline and get more than what they gave up for him. Maybe they have fooled themselves into thinking they can win in 2017. 2) Did any money change hands? 3) Who was the poster who claimed teams never take an option and then trade that player? 4) 700's point about EE would make total sense had we not signed Moreland. $13.5M buch + $5.5M Moreland is probably close to what EE will end up getting!

Great post.

What's strange about Pedey's career splits is that his best slot has been clean-up! Slots with 150+ career PAs 1st .777 (.354 OBP) 2nd .815 (.367) 3rd .802 (.368) 4th 1.054 (.424) 9th .800 (.377) As you can see, lead off has been Pedey's worst OBP slot. I'm not sure if a two month sample size is all that indicative of where Pedey hits best, and neither are career splits, granted. Again, I'm fine with at least starting Pedey lead off (or second), but if Beni is getting on base over 36% of the time, I think we'd have to consider moving him up to the 1 slot.

Fat slobs always hit best clean-up.