moonslav59

Nobody knows if extra rest does any good anyway. Yeah, let's play everyone 162 games and start Sale every other day. It's absurd to think extra rest is a cure for fatigue.

No, I said his sample size was inconclusive due mostly to its size. Sale's after may decline numbers are a much larger sample size.

I clearly said "positional rankings" not "player rankings". Fangraphs has Beni listed as the 10th best LF'er by WAR. (Some listed may play more of another OF position.)

I'm always okay with getting an (another) ace. I do think getting a clean-up hitter is the number one priority. I think Price might be that ace we "acquire", or Porcello might go 2016 on us again. It amazes me that Quintana and Gray were dealt shortly after Sale. It's not often 3 aces are dealt within a few months of each other.

Too funny!

I jokingly suggested Moreland. I'd have gone with Velazquez for as long as I could, then maybe Price for 2 and/or Workman for 2, maybe use Elias, if needed, and then go to the normal pen knowing we had the next day off. Not only would Sale get 2 days rest for his next start, instead of 1, so would everyone else, unless we wanted to realign starters for the playoffs.

This whole thing started when I said he shouldn't have even started 2 days ago. Of course, if I didn't want him started, I'd be for limiting his innings, if he did start. I addressed that point made by others.

None of the "burn out Sale" posters are addressing this realistically. "Not stressful innings" "JF consulted with Sale, and he wanted to keep pitching, so that makes it all okay" "Big game motivates him for the playoffs" all are hogwash.

I have not "pretended" to we shouldn't try to win the division. We have over a 90% chance of winning. I have been very clear that my idea does slightly lessen our chances to win the division. How is that "pretending?"

If his numbers have taken a major drop because of fatigue, how do you know that one skipped start is enough to turn him around? I don't. Just like you don't know that we need him to start 2 more games instead of 1. It seems like common sense that more rest will lessen the chance for fatigue-related worse starts going forward. If you want to argue otherwise, I'm listening. Also, my idea was not just about 1 game. I wanted him getting extra days off 1-2 starts before his last one, but even if we had pushed him to tonight, he'd have gotten 2 extra days off before his last start and 1 extra before our first playoff game. The plan now is 1 extra day before his next start and none before the last game of the season, if needed. If we don't need him, he will get 4 extra days rest, which I do not like the idea of. Getting all his rest at once might cause rustiness. It's possible that the Guardians have figured him out. The two games against them is enough to skew his numbers for the last 6 weeks. You guys are grasping at straws. Even if you throw out the two bad CLE starts, he's had 3 bad starts out of the last 6. (11 ERs in 18 IP in those 3 starts) He hasn't given up more than 4 runs to any team, besides the two games against the Tribe. I'm more inclined to believe that he's tipping pitches, rather than he's feeling tired whenever he faces them. Okay, ignore his whole career that shows steady decline after may and then a steeper decline in SEP to concoct another narrative. You could give him a week's rest and the Guardians will probably still light him up in the playoffs. And maybe risk rustiness. Better to spread out the rest over 2-3 weeks and just lose the possibility of him pitching game 162, if needed. Nope. The Yankees (the other team that has given him fits lately) have hit him pretty well too. When he gave up 8 hits and 3 runs to them in May, was he tired then too? Clearly, no. He has no history of tiring in May. may is his best month.... maybe he tipped his pitches...lol. Rant as much as you like, but the Sox are going to do the right thing and concentrate on winning the division, THEN worry about the playoffs. Grasp all you want. History shows he declines near year end. It's not a stretch to assume it may be fatigue related and then be proactive about lessening the chance of fatigue in the guy we will need to carry us on his back in the playoffs. The burn him out rants disguised as motivational strategies, record reaching priorities (300Ks), and "JF consulted with him" are neglecting the true goal: winning a ring in a 3-4 year window.

I did not even want him to start that game. I'd have given him 2 days rest, which would have allowed him to get 2 days off before his final start of the regular season and then an extra day before game 1. Once they started him, I'd have pulled him after 3 or 4 inning- 5 tops.

Sox positional rankings by WAR 4th RF 4.7 13th SS 2.5 16th 2B 2.4 17th C 1.7 10th out of 15 DH -0.7 21st CF 2.4 21st LF 1.6 22nd 1B 1.1 28th 3B 0.5 The OF as a whole ranks 9th at 9.3.

No, I see the huge advantage of winning the division, despite WC teams winning a ring during this short time. I have acknowledged that my idea lessens our odds of winning the division slightly. I feel this slight decrease in those odds are worth it, since we aren't going to win a ring- the ultimate goal- without Sale doing better than 50-50 great starts-bad starts, which has been his pattern over the last 10 games. I have heard very little to no acknowledgement from "the other side" that not resting Sale more increases the odds that he will not pitch as well in the playoffs. Evidence shows over Sale's career, he declines sharply in Aug/Sept/Oct. This year's numbers show and even sharper decline. His career numbers with an extra day's rest or more blow away his other numbers. It's not even close, yet there is very close to no acknowledgement of those facts- other than some lip service about the White Sox being out of it every year, so maybe Sale wasn't trying. It couldn't possibly be fatigue related is the inference I'm getting. Nope. Not a chance. Win now. Pitch Sale 8 innings and 111 pitches so he can reach 300. Explain it away as those 111 pitches being non stressful. Explain it as a motivational piece- as if Sale needs motivation for the upcoming playoffs. The guys is a beast and he needs to be set up to maximize his playoff success. It's a valid argument with lots of supporting evidence that is being selective ignored or poo-poo'd by those who feel increasing our odds of winning the division by 1-2% (maybe) and getting Sale 300 ks, at the expense of possible burning out the one guy that has nearly single-handedly carried us through the season is singularly important. It was not a slam dunk choice. If it was (within the organization), I have less faith in Sox management than before.

Stats say rest him. Common sense says rest him. Many championship teams rested key players at some point.

We might just hold onto Holt for one more year so he can be the 4th Of;er. We might give Lin that role. We might sign JD Martinez to be our new clean-up hitter/DH/4th OF'er. We might give Swihart a shot at a utility role that includes LF. We may do two of the above and hope we cover it enough. I agree, we won;t spend much on a 4th OF'er.

I'm not taking it for granted. It's not a slam dunk choice. Sale has been showing fragility that could very well be tied to fatigue issues. 8 innings and 111 pitches was not needed to improve our odds of winning the division at all. I'm surprised so many posters seem to be 100% dismissive of any concern of burning Sale out just in time for the playoffs. Look, I get the argument about winning the division comes first, but really, how much did keeping Sale in 1 or 2 more innings really improve those odds? To lower Sale's chances of being strong for the playoffs to gain maybe a .0001 better chance at winning the division is not "slam dunk".

lol! Now, we have "fire and desire!"

Well, you responded to my response about him pitching 8 innings to get to 300. I even ended the post with "3 freakin; hundred!" Personally, I wouldn't have even started him last night. I'd have spread out his last 2 starts by taking away one of his last 3 starts. I certainly would have yanked him after 5 or 6. & was pushing it. 8 was way wrong. I'm not worried injury, per se, but he has a long history of struggling in September. It may or may not be related to fatigue or a lack of endurance/stamina, but certainly it could be. The fact that sale was lights out over his first 20 starts, then had bad starts in 5 of 9 starts. That concerns me and should concern everyone. Is that concern enough to add to the risk of not winning the division? Maybe- maybe not. Yanking him after 5 or 6 or 7 last night had virtually no affect on the odds of winning the division. The only possible odds it affected are Sale fatiguing or burning out odds. Wrong choice. Obvious, to me.

I get your point, too, but to me, if the reason was "300" it's slam dunk wrong.

Something to watch, if we're talking 5 or 6 slot, but the 20 year old has 28 HRs this year!

You're missing the point. It's the managers job to make the call. Sure, get some input in a 1-0 game to see if your starter stqill has some juice left, but this game was over, and we risked burning out our ace, who had struggled in 5 of his previous 9 starts (24 ER in 25 IP) for what? 3 freakin hundred!

Worst reason of all.

Very easy to let a 3 game lead slip through 10 games. Very easy to win by 5 or 6, too. Yes, we can and could still lose the lead. Resting sale is a risk. I never said otherwise. Burning Sale out is a risk, too. It's weighing one risk/reward vs the other. IMO, it's not a slam dunk choice.

I never said there was zero chance of blowing the lead. I think the odds are about 8-10% now of not winning the division. How much do you think Sale pitching 2 more games out our 10 left instead of 1 affects those odds? (Just curious) I said improve the long run odds while sacrificing a little off the div winner odds.

There are countless examples of teams resting starters over the last 10-15 days of the season and going on to win it all. You can concentrate on worst case scenarios. I'm concentrating on improving our odds of winning a ring. Yes, I might sacrifice some tiny odds factor of us somehow blowing a 3 game lead in order to increase the odds of Sale being sharper for the playoffs and thereby (hopefully) improving our odds of bringing home a championship. Either way, it's not a slam dunk right or wrong choice here.