moonslav59

Yeah, lots of wings and prayers in the rotation, but we did have the following year's Cy Young winner, Buch with a 3.26 ERA and ERod coming in at 3.85 (which is better than this year). We did have 5 guys with 245+ PAs and over a .797 OPS. Man, that year sucked.

Does that mean you expect a return to "normalcy", whatever that is, next year? Will signing JD Martinez take away some of that excessive drive to do better and better? Would signing EE have done the trick this year (with or without Moreland)?

The highest sweetness would be for us to beat the Yanks in the ALCS and the Cubs in the WS. Bring it on!

Yes, indeed. I'm not really sure how much credit or blame a manager should be assigned when players exceed or fall short of expectation or normal age curve productivity. I do recall JF getting a lot of props for the high performances of so many players in 2013 (actually not a whole lot or returning players did better did better than 2012). I'm grateful we won the division and do not need to play-in and waste a Sale start.

That was pretty big as well. Holt had the 5th most PAs in 2014, but just over 70 in 2013, so I cans ee why he was not included. Carp only had 103 in 2014. Overall, that team was much older, so expectations were for many to decline, but it was pretty darn scary, too.

Yes, Vaz did improve, but he was not a top 8 PA player last year. Holt was a top 8 player in 2015, so I used him in that comp. I realize I selected the cutoff of PAs for maximum affect with my argument. One could claim 9 of our top 10 players declined, if I counted Vaz and Beni. Interesting how the only actual top 10 guy who improved this year was Travis Shaw, who was not managed by JF. Papi retired. Young was 10th and also declined by a lot. I'm okay with arguing about the reasons for the massive decline, or if JF is to blame for any part of it, but I cannot agree that it was anything less than massive. Listed in order of 2016 PAs Betts .897> .803 (-94) Bogey .802> .746 (-56) Pedey .825> .760 (-65) J B J .835> .726 (-109) Ortiz .1.021>>> retired HRam .866> .750 (-116) TShaw .726> Milwaukee (.862 up 136) Holt .705> . 548 (-157) Leon .845> .644 (-101) Young .850> .709 (-141) Vaz .585> .735 (+150) Again, the top 8 returning players- by 2016 PAs- declined by more than 55 points! 6 of 8 declined by over 94. Vaz, at #9 last year went up 150 points. Shaw at #7 went up with another team. These numbers are frightening. Yes, there are excuses for Holt, Leon, Pedey & HRam, but one still could have done slightly better or much closer to 2016 than they ended up doing. Oh for 4 was probably against the odds. Then, couple that with the fact that all the young guys declined as well, and to me, the word "massive" fits the bill. (BTW, the next guy, #11 Beni, declined too, but the 2016 sample size was very small.)

It was massive. All 8 fell by over 50 points and 6 of 8 by over 100. The fact that all 8 declined while none improved makes it "melt-down caliber.

I included the top 2015 PA players. Go ahead and throw him out, and we still see 4 out of 5 declining- one by over 100 points. Why count Vaz, if you don't count Holt? Holt had more PAs in 2015 than Vaz in 2016. Vaz was not a top 8 PA guy from 2016. I do give credit for his improvement. I do think Moreland did slightly better offensively and poorer defensively than I expected. I had high expectations for Devers, but I will say, he did very well right out of the gate. His defense still needs work, but that's not JF's fault at all.

Every top PA hitter, except HRam declined from 2015 as well. Bogey .776 > .746 Betts .820 > .803 Holt .727 > .548 HRam .717 > .750 Pedey .797 >.760 JBJ .832 > .726 It was a massive and near total meltdown decline. The reasons may be unknown, but let's not sugar coat it.

We have the 26th draft pick next year. There are no lost 1st round picks this year due to QO FA signings.

I did see improvement over the second half- in terms of less blunders and bonehead plays. I also think the additions of Devers, Nunez, Reed and Workman made JF's 2nd half job easier.

I projected 100 wins with normal injuries. I don't think we had more than the norm, so I feel we under performed a bit.

I didn't mean right this second. I was thinking more in terms of 2018, but it wouldn't hurt to surprise some Astros pitchers by swinging at the first pitch a little more.

I'm still very hopeful for this year. I realize we are not the co-favorites I expected us to be, but the playoffs are largely a crap shoot, and we have experience, pitching and defense. I'll be at both games in Houston: standing room only tix.

It's hard to argue against DD's building of the team for a 3 year window. Sale Pom Kimbrel Price (injury issue) Nunez (hopefully returns strong) Moreland Reed Smith was no harm- no foul as Miley has sucked. Young- meh. Thornburg's injury was hurtful as Shaw raked, but this is the only deal that looks really bad for the 2017-2019 roster.

I think we need to start varying our approach, so we aren't so predictable. Easier said than done, I know.

Thank DD for getting us... Chris Freakin' Sale!

Is it beyond the realm of possibility that this team could have won 95 or 100+ games and only won 93 because of JF? Does winning 93 games and back to back division titles negate any reasonable criticism? Had the Yanks won what the phythagoream formula said they should have, we'd have finished up as a wild card team, and the tone would probably be a lot different right now. One has to at least accept that there is a possibility we won despite JF and not because of him. It's not an absurd position to hold. We have a very talented team. We should have won the division. We won despite massive declines by our top 8 hitters and Cy Young winner. We won despite untold amounts of bonehead plays. None of this can be attributed to JF, apparently-- just the 93 wins and division title. To me, it's embarrassing to believe all discussion and criticism should end, because we won the division 2 times in a row. Isn't it possible another manager could have gotten 2 or 3 out of our 8 returning players to not decline by 100 points in OPS, or maybe help Porcello figure out what he's been doing wrong, or maybe to not pinch run Wright, or maybe to teach the fundamentals of baseball more thoroughly? Maybe just one of these done better? Nope. We won. End of discussion. No way anyone could have done better.

Sale and Pom and pray to the holy Mom.

It's not ideal, but in an elimination game, I'll go with 3-Day Sale over Porcello or Fister. Plus, it allows Pom to pitch game 5, if needed. 2 Sale (one on 3 days rest) 2 Pom 1 ERod vs 2 Sale (one on extra days rest) 1 Pom 1 ERod 1 Porcello/Fister Ideally, we'll be up 2-1, and not need Sale for game 4.

I'm hopeful it was injury-related and not a prolonged slump. We could really use the "old" Bogey, since nobody else seems to be returning to 2016 form.

I think so, too. I have him as our 5 man behind Kimbrel, Price, Reed and Kelly (in that order).

I respect your opinion, but disagree. Now is not the time to discuss all this. Let's be optimistic, like we both have been all year, and wish for the best.

Locks: Kimbrel, Price, Kelly, Reed Likely: Barnes 2 or 3 from: Smith, Workman, Maddox, Scott, Fister/Porcello Long shots or impossibles: Abad, Hembree

My point was, all our starters are better than any PH'ers we have. I guess we may PH for Leon, if he starts.