moonslav59

Assuming we become sellers, I'd trade him for the best offer and then try to re-sign him next winter.

Does this mean we're done bashing Ben?

We also have to remember that although we have used the pen-starter strategy less than some teams, and our innings are higher than most, we've had an 8 man pen all year long. That should have more than made up for the 14 IP extra we have. I can't remember the last time the Sox have gone with 13 pitchers all year long. The pen was thin to begin with and short on top quality arms. The hope was they'd get us to the trade deadline, and some help would arrive. The hope was our starters would dominate and pitch longer than they have to help take some of the stress and innings away from the pen. The hope was the hitting would help make up for some of the pen's shortcomings. The pen has sucked, especially the last 4-6 weeks. The starters have sucked and not given the innings hoped for. (We've had some long extra inning games, too.) The hitters have not come through, when they have been needed most. We've scored a lot of runs, but not enough in close games. Even our defense has looked worse than expected, despite Devers improving a lot at 3B. Our GM, manager and coaches all are partially to blame, as well. To me, it's one giant let-down. Only Bogey, Devers, Price, ERod, Vaz, Workman, Chavis and a tiny sample size from Marco have been doing better than expected. You don't win with just 5-6 guys doing well.

Trade him to a big NL park team, and he's a good gamble for a contender. Plus, we can pay most of his remaining salary to increase the return prospect or two.

I agree, and I'd like to tell him we want him back before and during trading him this summer. He'd be a nice piece to a contender in need of bench strengthening.

You start a rebuild be deciding to suck for a year or 1.3 years (or more for "other teams"). We sell players under team control for 1.3 years or less and maybe others that look like they may not be helpful in 2021 and beyond. I realize we will not get anywhere near the haul you guys got in your sell-off, but it's a start. The next big step is to reset the tax this winter. We get a half way decent draft pick this year, due to finishing in the middle this year and maybe below middle next year. When the 2021 season comes, we'll be able to spend large to fill the many holes. We'll have a few prospects nearing or at ML readiness. It may take longer or much longer than 1.3 years, but we can possibly get back to respectability by 2021 by being a top spender, again- a luxury many rebuilding teams don't have or use. We could have a core of these players for 2021: Bogey Devers ERod Vaz Barnes Maybe JD, Betts and/or Workman (Holt?) Probably Price & Sale Chavis, Taylor & Marco Prospects obtained in trades plus maybe some from Dalbec, Chatham, Duran, DHern, Houk, Feltman, Houk, Ward, Shugart, Lakins, Scherff or Ockimey I realize, we'll need a lot of FAs to fill all the holes, but our budget will be lower and the end of Pedey's deal will be in sight by 2021 and the reset budget tax.

I'm not down on Brock. My point was that IF we become sellers, he should be traded. He's a FA after this season. BTW, he's the only guy I mentioned, "we can re-sign him" out of all the names I said we should offer in trade. Sounds like I value him higher than all the others on my trade list.

Of course, you sell the pieces you can get the most for, first, but you are underselling Holt. Yes, he's been fragile, but he's doing very well and can play many positions. Moreland is worth nothing right now. I am assuming he shows signs of life by the deadline- if not, then nada.

I never said we'd get a great haul for these guys, just get the best we can. If we pay most of Porcello's contract,someone will take a flyer on him. Moreland will not get much back, even if he comes back very soon and rakes.

De la Guerra 2-4 with 9th HR Castillo 2-4 with 9th HR Wade 7 IP 0 ER 3 H 0 BB 6 K (to 3.13 ERA) Duran 0-4 (3 Ks) Chatham 2-4 Curletta 2-3 (2B & BB) Dalbec 0-2 (2 BB & 2 runs) Haworth 5.2 IP 1 ER 5 H 0 BB 4 K Casas 3-4 (16th HR) to .859 OPS Lozada 2-4 (3rd HR)

It looks more and more like a fire sale summer, but we are not there, yet. We need to start planning for it, now, though. We should not make trades to try and win in 2020, but instead 2021 and beyond. Use 2020 to reset the tax with the idea that we may go heavy in the FA market in 2021. Anybody not under team control in 2021 or beyond, trade for the most we can get- preferably prospects that should be ready by 2021 or 2022, but really good ones farther away would be okay. Players under team control in 2021 and beyond, look at their ages and chances of being a key to helping us contend, consider keeping or trading. Sell for best return (pay 99% of salary, if needed): Porcello Moreland Holt Cashner (Pearce if worth anything) FAs after 2020 (may have higher value) Betts JBJ Workman (maybe extend?) Wright & Leon (if worth anything) Special cases: JD Martinez (back issues and age do not help his case as a key piece for 2021 and beyond) Price (Tough call. His age says no to 2021>>) Sale (Probably not worth trading while his stock is low. He may rebound and be a help in 2012>> or he could rebound, and we trade him while his stock is higher than now.) Eovaldi (Trading low is not a good idea.) After 2021 FAs Pedey (contract gone) ERod (keep) Barnes (keep) Hembree (Probably worth keeping, for now) It's easier to just list the keepers: Bogey Devers Vaz ERod Barnes Maybe extend Workman Wait it out with Sale, Eovaldi & Hembree

Anything we can get for Moreland and Holt is better than nothing. We can re-sign Holt, if we want him back.

Add Vaz and ERod.

I agree; I'd lay 5:1 odds he's nobody's 3-4 starter by then.

It's not spin. Just stop listening to someone posting half season UZR/150 numbers when even 1 full season is too small a sample size to you judge by rank. That's one side of the argument. The other is that JBJ may actually be playing the 16th best CF'er. (Was that the WAR or dWAR ranking?)

If I had to bet, I'd bet you are right on this one, but with the state of baseball's pens these days, you can hang on for a long time by just not sucking too often.

Yes. Maybe.

We don't need a bat. We just need the ones we have to hit better when it matters. You can't trade for clutch. We need 2 pitchers, and that's beyond Eovalid's return. At this moment, we have D Hern & Ryan Weber on the 25 man roster. Those are easily the worst two players on the roster. Okay, maybe Johnson or Wright can replace one of them, but Walden needs to go down, too. Okay, Travis may be one of the bottom 4 on the roster, but Moreland will replace him. What hitter do we get, and where does he play? You want to bench JBJ? He's one of our hottest players over the last 2 months, and he's a great fielder. You want to bench or trade Beni? Chavis? Getting a batter is the last thing we need.

He has not been "branded as being middle of the road," unless you use tiny sample sizes the makers of this metric expressly warns against using.

It's not so much about the amount of plays hit to JBJ, it's about how many difficult plays he makes near or beyond the fringes of the CF zone. Betts takes some of those plaays away and the short LF wall may take away others. That's one point that notin has been making. My point is about how good is the #20 best defensive CF'er in MLB? How good is #25? #30? How good is a AAAA player on defense- some AAAA may be great- some may suck on defense.

Looks about as up and down as his OPS, and that ain't odd. They say look at 2-3 years combined sample sizes anyway.

They are less biases than I. They are more trained than I. A AAAA player can be an outstanding fielder with no hit tool.

True, but they were supposed to be a strength to the club, and their pay reflected those expectations. The pen has been (overall) pitching like we expected, so it's harder to fault them, IMO.

MLB players have those sort of slumps as well. How many dingers within that .207?

It is kind of as flaw, since JBJ loses rating because of Betts, and UZR/150 is (I believe) supposed to somewhat take away the need for a fan to have to adjust the rankings due to park, nearby fielders or what sort of pitching staff you play behind (High K, high GB, high FB, etc...). I'm fine with UZR/150 and dWAR, but the fan must still make certain adjustments to make them seem more accurate or "real". It is a hell of a lot better than one person's view.