moonslav59

My point was always about GS'd NOT IP. I never even thought of the "opener role." If they started him out in that role, he could easily get 12-14 "starts".

Famous denials followed by trades are not uncommon. Trade values accepted this deal: Duran, Chavis & Groome for Wheeler, Kingery, Eflin, Romero & $3M.

No, I'd expect Philly to kick in enough money to keep us under the tax line by enough to add a RP'er or two. If they are willing to kick in money for Wheeler, they most certainly would be for A.M. The trade values site has Wheeler + McCutchen as a net -8. In theory, we could ask them to add 2 RP'ers to bring the value to zero and give up nothing for the 4 of them. (I was thinking AM could play RF and Verdugo CF, but his D has dropped off a lot. You are right, it makes little sense to take AM.)

I totally agree. We rested these guys, who needed it, and still only ended up with these IP'd: 174 Porcello 147 Sale 107 Price 68 Eovaldi Are the "Restgate" people really thinking, had we pitched these guys more early on, they'd have not gotten hurt and missed much of the season? One could easily argue the opposite: had Cora pampered these guys even more, maybe they'd have been healthier and ended up with more IP'd.

I never said I wanted Sale to get 12-18 starts- only that it was the most we could expect. Getting to 12 or more would take a few things to happen: 1) I expect Sale is doing everything he can to follow protocol, so his recovery time will not be extended due to laziness or poor attitude. 2) The Sox are in the playoff hunt in July, or the season has been pushed back. 3) Sale is truly healthy and ready to start. 4) His starts have pitch counts. We can "not want" Sale to try hard, but I'm not sure anyone can stop him. I'm not expecting him to be reckless.

The cost for getting Wheeler would go way down (perhaps to zero), if we took McCuthen, too. (Not saying I'd do it.)

I have no issue with anyone saying 10 GS'd is the most realistic best case scenario, but I don't think 12 GS'd is beyond reason. 14 might be pushing it, but players do come back earlier than 17-18 months, and my guess is nobody can try harder than Sale to do so. I respect your position about Cora, and it makes a lot of sense. It's one reason I lowered my expectations on Sale for 2021.

Someone gave what they thought was the "best case scenario" on Sale. It happens that a thread goes off on some tangents. I responded what I felt was "best case" withing the context of being "realistic." I felt 12-18, and now realize that 18 is unrealistic, unless the season is pushed back. 12 starts is not the same as saying we will repeat 2018. Nice try, though.

I guess there were two separate rumor mills back then, apparently with no overlap.

A real expert. I still think there's a chance Sale is pitching in July. Sure, I could be wrong, but we were talking best case scenarios.

So the very best case scenario, which one could assume we are in a playoff hunt, is he can only get 10 starts. I agree my top end of 18 GS'd is too rosy, but I still think he may get 12-14 starts. If the start of the season is pushed back, and/or we make the playoffs, we could see 12-16.

This is not "vagaries of memories;" it is a correct recollection of what the rumors were back then. It may be hard to prove the rumors were correct. I do not think there were any rumors of abuse. If I'm wrong, then my memories can be called vague.

Wow, 10 is so far from 12.

I never heard the abuse rumors- just that he was hitting on numerous other players' wives.

MLBTR Yankees third baseman Gio Urshela underwent surgery Friday to remove a bone chip from his right elbow, the team announced. He’ll need three months to recover.

Theo was the master of gaining comp picks. He clearly made some trades with that in mind (like the Wagner deal.) 2003: Matt Murton & Abe Alvarez (Cliff Floyd) 2005: Ellsbury & Lowrie (OCab) later, we traded JL for Melancon & got a comp pick for Ells. Hansen & Bowden (D Lowe) later, Hansen was part of the Manny for Jason Bay deal (another comp) Buchholz & Egan (Pedro) 2006: Daniel Bard & Kris Johnson (Damon) Caleb Clay & Aaron Bates (Mueller) 2007: Nick Hagadone (Gonzo) later part of Masterson for VMart deal (later comp pick for him, too) Ryan Dent (Foulke) 2008: Bryan Price (Gagne) Stephen Fife (Hunter Morris) later traded as part of the trade for Erik Bedard 2010: Kolbrin Vitek & Ranaudo (Wagner) B Brentz & Workman (J Bay) later Workman was traded w. Hembree for Pivetta & Seabold 2011: Barnes & Owens (VMart) JBJ & Swihart (Beltre) 2012: B Johnson & Pat Light (Papelbon) later, Light was traded for F Abad 2014: M Kopech (Ellsbury) later part of the trade for Chris Sale It's interesting to look at a few of these comp picks and how their effects can be long-lasting: Trading for 2 months of OCab ended up netting us or helping us acquire Ellsbury, Lowrie, Melancon and Sale. By letting Derek Lowe go, we drafted Hansen, who helped us get Jason Bay, who helped us get Workman and then Pivetta & Seabold. Hagadone helped us get VMart who netted us Barnes. Some gifts never stop giving!

My favorite Sox SS's since I started following the Sox in the early 70's (note: I tend to hold my childhood heroes in a higher light): 1. Burleson 2. Aparicio 3. Gonzalez 4. Iglesias 5. Valentin 6. Cora 7. OCab 8. Nomar 9. Bogaerts 10T. Guerreo, Rivera, Reese (As you can tell, I'm a pro D SS fan.) Top Sox SS's by fWAR over the last 50 years: 38.9 Nomar (966 gms) 31.2 Valentin (991) 26.4 Bogaerts (970) 17.8 Burleson (1031) 12.7 Reed (715) 4.8 Scutaro (263) 3.9 Drew (163) 3.5 Lowrie (256) 2.7 Aparicio (367) 2.5 Gonzalez (155) Followed by Merloni, Renteria, Aviles, Iggy, Cora, Rivera, Jurak, OCab, Owen, Lugo, C Rodriguez, Reese & Guerrero. Those with negative fWARs: -3.3 Ed Romero -3.2 Gutierrez -1.3 Lansing -0.1 Quinonez 0.0 Hoffman, Lin & N Green

I loved Gonzo, too. I remember, the year he left us, he hit 23 HRs. (He did pretty well, on offense, for us, too.) Although Scutaro did better, on defense that next year, than I expected, I never understood that choice.

The Nomar of pre-2004 blows OCab away, but 2004 and later, Nomar was no longer Nomar. Also, Nomar's defense was pretty bad, despite the hype he received for his running, jumping, twisting throws from the hole, when other better defenders would simply, plant and throw. Nomar's offense was spectacular and second to none at SS, save ARod.

Not every patient is the same. There are examples of players returning significantly earlier than 18 months. A person's drive and willingness to follow the protocols matter. Every doctor will agree. Also, TJS is not what it was long ago. https://www.newswise.com/articles/new-surgical-technique-cuts-tommy-john-recovery-time-in-half My point was that, if anyone can cut down on the recovery time, it would be someone like Sale. (Also, I was talking about 12-18 GS'd not IP. I agree, Cora will start him off very slowly and cautiously.)

If any player could come back a bit earlier and a bit better than the norm, I'd bet on Sale.

There may be games in empty, full or half-full stadiums by the time Sale is ready to pitch. Certainly, there's a chance he gets 12-18 starts. It's not "unrealistic."

...or, they did not attribute their winning to OCab. Maybe thought they could keep winning without him. One interesting note on OCab: when we traded for him, he was known for his defense but had a decent offense season in 2003, too, yet his defensive metrics were mixed prior to and during that 2004 season. His final WAR for 2004, both teams combined: 0.0! That was his lowest WAR from 2001 to 2010. Year UZR/150 DRS '03 1.3 4 '04 -5.3 10 '05 19.6 5 '06 -2.2 -9 '07 12.6 2 '08 14.9 1 '09 -13.0 -30 '10 1.9 1 '11 -0.8 3 Very up and down. His .707 career OPS was not horrible for a SS. He had 5 seasons with an fWAR above 3.1. From 2001-2008, he was one of MLB's best SS by WAR: 35.8 Jeter 31.6 Tejada 30.5 Rollins 25.0 Guillen 24.7 Renteria 23.3 Cabrera 21.7 Furcal 21.6 Reyes Fangraph's Def 88.6 OCab 82.7 Vizquel 78.7 Rollins 71.3 Wilson 63.7 Izturis 60.7 Gonzo 53.7 Reyes 48.3 Reyes 47.3 Lugo 43.9 Renteria UZR/150 11.0 Hardy 7.8 Vizquel 7.1 Gonzo 6.6 Izturis 6.0 OCab In DRS, he was 9th at +13.

Are you a player's wife?

If COVID affects MLB, it might just be for the first 1-3 months, the time Sale will miss anyway.