moonslav59

The "as bad as some claim" group are mostly the Bloom bashers.

Unless the Sox can extend an ace with one year left, I would not trade top prospects for one. I'd rather just offer more. Even 2 years remaining is dicey.

What GM, given the parameters Bloom was given from day one could have brought this team to glory by year 3? I don't even think any other GM would have been allowed to trade away much of the farm, even if they wanted to.

Here is what soxprospects.com has to say about the prospects expected to play for the big club, at some point in 2023: https://www.soxprospects.com/index.html Tristan Casas Potential everyday regular. Ceiling of an all-star capable of hitting for both average and significant power. Looks the part of a prototypical bat-first first baseman capable of anchoring a lineup. Projects to add some value defensively at first base as well. Hit tool still needs development. Will have to ensure the swing-and-miss in his game does not impact his ability to tap into his power. Strong instincts and feel for the game. Great work ethic and strong clubhouse presence. Student of the game, really looks to hone his craft. Bryan Bello (recently graduated) Potential mid-rotation starter. Ceiling of a number two starter or high-end number three. At his best, will flash three at least above-average p itches, and on the right day, all will look like potential plus pitches. Has done a great job improving his delivery and command to the point where you can comfortably project him as a starter. Has done a much better job repeating delivery and holding velocity deeper into starts in looks in 2022. Attacks hitters with a plan and has multiple pitches he is confident using against hitters. Against right-handed hitters, throws a lot of two-seamers and sliders, while against lefties he tends to go more with four-seam fastballs up and changeups down. Has pitches that break in all four directions and can be used in any quadrant. Has had allowed more hard contact to lefties than righties and that is something worth watching as he reaches the major league level. In the past, he would show the stuff of a starter, but combination of thin stature and delivery indicated a potential future in the bullpen. Not imposing physically, but still has projection and has the type of athleticism you look for. Has continued to improve year after year, and now is the top pitching prospect in the system and one of the top ten or so right-handed pitching prospects in baseball. Ceddanne Rafaela Potential bench utility player. Ceiling of an everyday regular who adds considerable value on defense and also contributes some at the plate. Defensive ability and versatility and speed give him a high floor. Could be a plus defender at every position except catcher and first base. Bat lags behind, but has improved considerably in 2022. Approach is what holds him back now and will determine his ultimate value at the plate. Bryan Mata Projects as a back end starter or multi-inning relief arm with premium stuff to handle a late inning role if necessary. Ceiling of a mid-rotation starter. Still has a wide range of outcomes as he makes his return from Tommy John surgery. Raw stuff is back, but feel for secondaries and command come and go within outings. Might be able to start, but could be more effective in shorter bursts out of the bullpen. Delivery still has effort and we need to see how his stuff holds up over longer, 5-6-inning stints and when pitching on a consistent starter’s schedule. Will show the potential for a true four-pitch mix with two potential plus offerings. Has shown the ability to miss bats with all four pitches at various points in his career. Harnessing command of his arsenal will be key for his development. Injury risk had become a concern even pre-Tommy John surgery, as he last made it through a full season healthy in 2017. Tommy John Surgery in April 2021 clouds future starter profile. Brandon Walter Potential back-end starter. Ceiling of a mid-rotation starter. Will show a starter's arsenal with three average-or-better pitches and the ability to turn over a lineup, but does not have a typical starter's delivery. Control is already above-average-to-plus and command should get to at least average. You can debate whether he fits better as a starter or reliever depending on the day you see him. Has some traits that would push him to each potential outcome, but has the makings of a major league-caliber arm either way. If pushed to the bullpen, combination of stuff and handedness gives him a decent floor. Connor Wong Potential MLB backup or up-and-down catcher. Ceiling of a platoon catcher who will have a season or two of starter-level production. Has already earned the trust of the organization as the third catcher on the 40-man roster, but has yet to get much run in the majors. Will have to make more contact. Power tool is better than hit right now, and he needs refinement at the plate. Has improved defense to the point that he should be able to handle that side of things in some role. Chris Murphy Potential multi-inning relief arm and spot starter. Ceiling of a back-end starter. Lacks a standout pitch, but has three average-to-better pitches and a fourth that can be effective when used on occasion. Needs to improve consistency with secondary pitches and command to allow him to work deeper into games and develop into a consistent starter. Chances of starting are better now than in the past now that he has shown he can consistently get right-handed hitters out, something he really struggled with coming into this year. Ability to miss bats has come and gone this year and will need to show more consistency there if he is to stick as a starter. Enmanuel Valdez Potential bat-first bench player. Ceiling of a bat-first utility player. Has moved around the diamond, but that is driven by him being below-average defensively and trying to find where he will best fit rather than true versatility. Will have to hit to hold value given defensive limitations. Has taken major strides at the plate in 2022; now has a chance to develop into at least a platoon bench bat and potentially more. Connor Seabold Potential swingman. Ceiling of a fifth starter. Has a four-pitch mix, but only his changeup projects better than average. Strong pitchability and advanced command and control profile allow his arsenal to play up. At his best, can generate whiffs with three pitches, but does not show consistency with his arsenal from outing to outing. Not the highest ceiling, but command/control and feel/pitchability, combined with proximity to MLB, give him a fairly high floor. Stuff is unlikely to be good enough to start for a contending team. Profiles better in a long relief and depth starter role, but could start for a second division club. Jeter Downs Potential emergency utility infielder. Ceiling of fringe-utility infielder who struggles to hold down a consistent role and jumps from team to team. Future potential is largely tied to development of his hit tool. Has really struggled to make contact in the high minors, especially on velocity. May have been promoted to Triple-A a bit too aggressively after the lost 2020 season given his limited exposure to Double-A. If he can develop even a below-average hit tool, has the chance to carve out a major league role, but even that is a question after prolonged struggles in Triple-A. Other tools are all about average, and he lacks another carrying tool if his hit tool does not develop. Frank German Potential middle reliever. Ceiling of a late-inning relief arm. Stuff has taken off since he moved to the bullpen in September 2021. In short bursts, his velocity has increased and his secondaries have improved. Lacks a plus secondary pitch right now, but has shown bat-missing ability with both splitter and slider against minor league competition. If one of his secondaries takes a step forward along with his command, has late-inning potential. Zack Kelly Projects as a middle reliever. Ceiling of a consistent seventh-inning arm. Likely lacks late-inning upside due to inconsistent command, but could stick around for a while as a sixth-inning arm. Fastball and changeup both project as plus pitches, with changeup showing true bat-missing ability. Cutter is more of a pitch-to-contact offering at present, but if it improves, would give him a third pitch that can miss bats. Late bloomer who could continue to improve and see his stuff take a step forward again. Ronaldo Hernandez Potential up-and-down, bat-first catcher. Ceiling of an everyday catcher if he improves his defense and approach, but the likelihood of that happening is low. Type of defensive profile that could really benefit from robot umps. Power and arm are carrying tools, but questions about his approach, hit tool, and defensive profile cloud his future projection. Needs to improve hit profile to project as a major leaguer if defense stays as is. If he can even develop into a fringe-average defender with a below-average hit tool, could be an everyday player given his power and arm. Eduard Bazardo Potential 11th or 12th pitcher on a major league staff. Ceiling of a quality middle reliever. Drastically improved velocity at the 2020 Fall Instructional League changed his projection, forcing the Red Sox to add him to the 40-man roster and putting him on the bullpen depth chart. Did not show that velocity after he got hurt in 2021, but as the 2022 season went on, velocity ticked back into the low-to-mid-90s. Potential for an above-average fastball and breaking ball combination with a jerky, deceptive delivery that could play against major league hitters. Needs to improve fastball command and improve consistency with his breaking ball in order to reach his ceiling. I can't remember seeing so many in one year. 14 on this list with a chance for maybe someone like T Ward to make, it up as well. There are also quite a few scheduled to arrive in 2024. The farm pipeline is looking much better and in a quicker time frame than I thought it would take.

I don't think a single poster believes or has said we should not be winning more with the budget we have. The disagreement- to some degree- is over how we got to this mess, and whether we should repeat the methodology that got us here in the first place, or not.

I never said they would. That is one reason I think we may make a plashy deal a year or two before maybe we should- emphasis on "maybe." Remember what’s good for how you see things might not be good for others see things especially the fans who pay the high ticket prices to go to the games at Fenway. If you think many fans were irate, and crybabies this year things will get worse next year if things don’t improve. I don't need to "remember." I made this exact point in my past posts. I'm also not against making a 2 or 3 good prospects for one, cost-controlled ace, right now. Not just to placate the crybabies, but to placate those who look beyond just the here and now and are not crying all day long, 7 days a week. I think our farm is near enough to where it has to be to allow for a big deal, but it should not, IMO, become a common occurrence. In reality, I do not think we are just a key player or two, or even 3 away from being a top contender, so I'd be fine waiting another year, but I also realize I am in a very small minority, and I would be drowned out by the crybabies, next season, if we punt to 2024 while trying to look semi-competitive in '23. This is not saying the crybabies have no right or reason to cry. I fully understand their reasons. I'm frustrated as hell, too. I'd rather see us get near the top sooner rather than later, but to me, unless we see a major shift in JH's spending tendencies, and it would have to entail going over the tax line for 3 or more years, perhaps by a lot, I'm not in favor of going all in for 2023, only to re-set in 2024 and then not have the prospects needed to pull us back up. We'd just be repeating the mistakes in the past.

We all do. It's who we lay most of the blame on that we diverge.

I call them crybabies, because they are babies who cry and cry and cry.

He'd be on his 4th one year deal, then.

The injuries could easily be the reason for the O dip. I'm really excited about Bleis & Perales. I'm hopeful we see Mata & Walter in 2023.

Yes, we have just arrived at the point where we can start to expect a steady flow of helpful graduating prospects. Some will surely disappoint, and some may surprise us. We may even have enough, where we can afford a trade very now and then that involves giving up 2-3, but to sustain the system, those times should be few and far between, and ideally made at strategic times when the team seems like it is just a key player or two away from a ring challenge, and the budget lines up with the window. NOT just because many fans are irate and screaming for an all-out strategy before everything is lined up. I'm not saying 2023 isn't the "right time." Much of the timing depends on spending plans none of us are privy to. Much depends on what Bogey and or Devers might accept as "hometown discounts" or overpays. Much depends on secondary signings and additions that may look like Marwin, Andriese, Richards and Diekman, or hopefully may look like Schreiber, Refsnyder, Renfroe, Wacha, Strahm or the 2021 Kike. I think the farm is currently lined up to expect about 3 useful to key additions every year for the next 3-5 years. If we keep signing good IFAs and drafting like Bloom seems to be doing well at, maybe 5-7 years or more.

I'm counting prospects that were in the system, before DD became the GM, too, plus the ones he drafted and needed years to develop. Many players take 5-7 years to develop, alone- or longer. I'm not sure what your point is. Also, DD could have "decimated the farm" by trading Devers. Later, he could have traded guys like Dalbec. He sure traded a lot, but clearly no decimation.

We have a lot to be hopeful over, next year on the farm.

One would expect the GM from 4-7 years ago to have more top prospects than the one from 0-3 years ago, due to aging and development, and I'm pretty sure DD added better prospects than many of expected he did when he left, and even a year or two beyond his departure. Here are the top prospects there were in the system before DD and added by DD during his time, here: Graduated (date became a non prospect) Devers 9/17 Brasier 8/18 Taylor 8/19 DHern 9/19 Dalbec 5/21 Houck 9/21 Duran 7/22 Crawford 8/22 Bello 10/22 Still prospects (pre-Bloom) w current soxprospects rankings 2. Casas 4. Rafaela 6. Mata 8. Walter 9. Paulino 12. Murphy 13. Wikelman 15. Perales 17. Lugo 18. TWard 19. Bonaci Bloom prospects of acquired when prospects: Graduated: Whitlock 6/21 Winckowski 9/22 Still prospects (current soxprospects ranking) 1. Mayer 3. Bleis 5. Yorke 7. Romero 10. Anthony 11. Wong 14. E Valdez 16. Jordan 20. Hickey 21. Coffey 22. Kavadas 23. Seabold 24. Downs 25. Rodriguez-Cruz 26. Abreu 27. German 28. Drohan 29. Kelly 30. Brannon 31. J Paez 32. R Hern 33. Binelas 34. McDonough 35. Uberstine This is not even close to "decimation" or "emptying."

I'm one who has no beef with DD bring us 2 first place finishes and the best season the Sox have ever had, but think we also went overboard in trading prospects. I, too, agree it is ******** to say he decimated or emptied the farm. Devers, alone exposed that exaggeration. A couple posters, maybe 3 or 4, in moments of hyperbolic rants have said he "decimated" or "emptied" the farm. I'm not sure why we are going on an on about this. DD traded over 20 prospects, who at one time or another were top 20 on soxprospects.com. Many had already lost value, when traded. Many had hyped value when traded, and never met the promise they had when traded. A few have done okay or better than okay. A few are still pending to some degree. In hindsight, the trades were worth it, but let's not shortchange the affect, even if less than many think it is, on the current team and farm value. We basically have nobody left from those trades, but a lot of glory to show from many of them. We'd also be better, right now with Kopech, Moncada, Margot, Beeks, and a few others. We'd also be better, if DD was handed a better farm or drafted/signed IFA better than he did. I think he did better than I expected when drafting so lowly and having penalties on IFA signings and restricted bonus pool money due to winning so damn much. All we need to do is look at who our farm has produced since Devers was called up in 2017. That's over 5 years ago. Let's not pretend the farm has been a big help since then. Even if you count the DD prospects trades after the Devers call-up as prospects that helped us, that list is short and nearly insignificant, excpet for maybe Beeks for Nate.

.426>.599>.438 ('12-'14) .481>.574 ('15-'16) .667>.519 ('18'19) not quite .600 to .400 but still a .148 drop followed by .400 in '20. .400>.568 ('20-'21) Not exactly .400 to .600 or ,600 to .400 but not are for us.

Except for our beloved team.

Just Baseball's End of Year Rankings: 18. Casas 21. Mayer 81. Rafaela 3 NYY: 12, 35, 59 5 TBR: 25, 34, 75, 77, 83 2 TOR: 5, 13 6 BAL: 2, 3, 23, 29, 67, 89 Bleacher Report updated Sep 9th: 13. Mayer 35. Casas 43. Bello 98. Rafaela

I wish I has mentioned those AL East crowns.

Would this be a realistic plan to make us competitive in 2023, while also looking beyond '23 and hopefully helping there as well, despite giving up some prospects: 1. Trade Rafaela, Yorke, Wikelman & Hosmer to MIA for Luzardo and Berti 2. Sign Nimmo 3. Sign Swanson 4. Sign Fulmer and Montero 5. QO accepted by Wacha 6. No Paxton or Pham options 2023 Sox SP: Sale, Wacha, Luzado, Pivetta, Bello LR: Crawford SR: Whitlock, Houck, Fulmer, Montero, Scheiber, Barnes, Taylor C: McGuire/Wong 1B: Casas 2B: Story 3B: Devers SS: Swanson LF: Verdugo CF: Kike RF: Nimmo SH/UT: Arroyo, Berti, Refsnyder, Dalbec

We wasted 2 years on Price before that 2018 ring, too, although we did finish in 1st place in 2016 & 2017.

I get the feeling over 15 teams will be knocking loudly on Miami's door. We will have to match or exceed every other offer.

I actually think the plan was to try and make the playoffs, this year, with Story's help, but the higher priority was beyond 2023 and Story fit in those plans as well.

You obviously are not talking about me. I wanted us to trade for Montas and sign Baez & Suzuki, last winter, among many other great plans..

Exactly the words I used, but if it placates the restless fans for 2023, maybe it serves that purpose. One could say we "wasted" a year of Story (maybe two), but it did quiet the complainers a tiny bit for a brief period of time.