moonslav59

McGuire may very well flop. I'm not convinced he is a good catcher or will even become our FT catcher more than just to start the season. Hell, we may still add a catcher before opening day. I do think the contract Vaz got was more than I would have paid, so I'm glad we got two pretty decent prospects for 2 lost moths of Vaz, and then we traded a Guy I wanted DFA'd for McGuire. To somehow view those turns of events as being a bad thing is laughable.

I'd rather have McGuire at peanut cost over the next 3 years than Vaz at his salary. It's not even close. Plus, Bloom was able to dump Diekman and his $4M for 2023 to get McGuire. The mini fire sale I spoke of was doing enough to get us under the tax line.

Indeed, and I have said I am, too about several things. I never said crybaby fans or bad or never bring about good things. That was just some poster overanalyzing and misinterpreting, again.

Too much for you to read? You expected greatness or even mediocrity from these circumstances? Obviously you did, but you can't show any basis for it.

We showed you countless times. If you forgot, you go look. I know what you wrote. I know what words mean. We were talking about Bloom extensions, and you listed 3-4 names, including Sale. You obviously knew he was a DD extension, and maybe was trying to point out our longer history of not-so-good extensions, but you listed Sale with other Bloom extensions. We pointed it out, then, and it wasn't just me, but you denied your words meant what they said then. You'll do the same, now, even if I find it. It's like when you said "You hate Bogey and Bogey's defense, too." you claimed that does not mean I hate Bogey. It would have been so easy to simply say, "that's not what I meant," and I actually believe you did not mean to say that, but what you wrote means I hate Bogey, whether you want it to mean that or not. You just can't do it. Who knows why?

Bell hears all.

Our supporting signings don't look all that great, either, and I'm talking going back to CC, Pablo, HRam, Price and then the Sale extension. Our farm additions all but dried up after Devers in 2017, which led to the point where they all reached free agency within a few short years, and we had no Michael Tuckers and Jeremy Penas to take their places. I don't think we are disagreeing, here, and we both know, we'll need farm help and better supporting signings and trades than we have been getting to make a Soto signing worthwhile.

The thing is, he wasn't misquoted, and what he said was not misinterpreted. We were talking about Bloom extensions, and he listed Sale along with others. His words had clear meaning, but it seemed he did not mean it that way, but instead of saying that, he claimed his words did not mean what they clearly meant (likely, not what he meant, but to him there is no difference.)

It wasn't a misinterpretation. You said it. When we pointed out you said it, you denied your words meant what they said, and not that you didn't mean it the way you wrote it. I'm far from crying about it. It actually makes me laugh you can't just say, "I meant to say ____." That's how full of yourself you are, or insecure: who knows why?

Try to place yourself out of the realm of placing blame or assigning fault. Look at the state of the Red Sox team- top to bottom and all aspects, including the farm and budget after 2019. I'll ask you make 2 assumptions: 1. The budget numbers were more or less set in stone. 2. The mandate to build up the farm, included the idea that no top prospects would be traded to improve the 26 man roster. Even if you disagree with these assumptions, I ask you still try to follow along and to try and envision what a realistic expectation would be for the team's win-loss results and overall feeling of direction and chances for success. Also, what would be a realistic time frame for significant improvement to become visible and success to be expected and not a surprise, like maybe 2021 was (MAYBE.) First, the roster and budget. The opening day 2019 roster is listed at $236M and fell to $228M by season's end. The Tax line was $243M.6. I'll go by the tax line salary amounts. Here is what was carried over after DD left (in $ millions): 31 Price x 3 years 22 JD x 3 yrs 17 Nate x 3 13.8 Pedey x 2 25.6 Sale x 5 (extension kicked in in 2020) 20 Bogaerts x 3 (opt out occured) 8.6 JBJ (with 1 more arb left) 6.5 Moreland (was re-signed by Bloom) 4.5 Vaz x 2 with option for 2022 4.3 ERod (with 2 more arbs) 2.5 Leon (1 arb left) 1.6 Barnes (2 arbs left- was extended by Bloom, later) 1.3 Hembree (2 arbs) 1.2 Workman (1 arb) Gorkys Hernandez, Marco Hernandez, Juan Centero (arbs remaining) entering 1st arb: Beni, Ryan Weber, Marco Hernandez & Josh A Smith pre-arb: Devers, J Taylor, Brasier, B Johnson, H Velazquez, S Travis, C Brewer, M Chavis, DHern, B Poyner, MShawaryn, Walden and a few others. Lost and essentially not replaced: 31.0 Price 22.6 Porcello 20.0 Betts (would have been $29M arb in 2020) 8.0 Cashner 6.3 Pearce From 2019 to 2020, the budget was slashed $60M. $20M no Betts $16M half-Price $20M Porcello $6M Pearce The pre-2020 Winter spending budget, not counting arb raises to JBJ, ERod, Beni, Barnes...: under $20M total, not counting what was slashed 6.5 Perez 4.3 Pillar (traded at deadline) 3.0 Moreland (re-signed/ traded at deadline) 2.9 Pereza (yuck!) 1.5 Lucroy 850K Osich (traded at deadline) Min wage: Covey, McHugh, Springs, Brice... Betts & half-Price are traded for what seems to be about the best any team offered with some debate about this. Then, Sale, Pedey and ERod miss the whole 2020 season. Only the diehard Bloom-bashers think the 2020 season is his fault. 2021 Winter spending budget: about $40M total, counting the Ottavino trade, but not counting "saving" $3M on the Beni trade and arb raises. 10.0 Richards 8.9 Ottavino trade 7.0 Kike x 2 5.0 Perez II 3.1 Renfroe 3.0 Marwin 2.1 Andriese 1.5 Sawamura x 2 Again, Sale misses just about the entire season. We miss going to the WS by 2 games. 2022 Winter spending budget, not counting arb raises or the $5M raise for the Barnes extension and Vaz option) and the JBJ for Renfroe budget hit: about $40M 23.3 Story 7.0 Wacha 6.0 Paxton 5.0 Hill 4.0 Diekman x 2 (traded at deadline) 3.0 Strahm 2.3 Robles No Sale and Paxton all year. We lose Kike and Story for parts of the year, and 4 out of the 5 remaining SP'ers go on the IL at some point, often 2-3 at the same time. Most of the returning vets see declines in production- some by a lot. The Farm Infusions (or lack of it): Since the call-up of Devers in the summer of 2017, so this started long before DD left, the most notable prospect additions until Casas and Bello in late 2022 were: Houck Dalbec Duran Arauz Chavis Downs DHern Crawford What sort of impact on expectations should just these farm names have? No doubt, many of the minor and 2ns tier additions Bloom made did not work out, but what should have been expected, when most players signed were for $1-7M and 1 year? That's not to say, they weren't mistakes, or at least some of them, but some worked out well, too: Pivetta Renfroe 2021 Kike 2021 (not 2022) Whitlock Schreiber Refsnyder Wacha Hill Strahm How much has the farm been built up, even if just on paper? Yes, it's speculation, and some of DD's additions are proving to be better than expected, or assumed to be looking good, going forwards, but realistically, what should or could have been expected after 2019? After 2020? After 2021? I'm thinking pretty close to what we got. High in '21- low in '22 with the farm looking better and this winter's moves looking pretty sketchy.

Words have specific meaning- something you never understand. You said it. Denying it over and over changes nothing. It would have been so simple to just say, "I misspoke," or "I meant to say ____," but you can never do even a simple correction to an obvious false statement.

Now we have to hear the "butterfly man" rant 1,000 more times!

I know crybaby fans work, and sometimes it's a good thing. The fear of crybaby fans that prevented a fire sale, or even a mini fire sale, hurt the team, going forward. No, it does not always work out for the best, but sometimes, it does, like with Devers deal, although you'd have let him walk over a few million dollars.

So, crybaby fans did force a decision. It's good to see you come up with some ideas all by yourself.

It's a fact. You said it.

I'd say a D, but a lot depends on sticking his neck out on Yoshida. The Bogey situation seems hard to grade, because I don't know what it would have taken to get Bogeyto sign this "off-season." The main reason for the low grade is that we paid a large percent of our winter budget on a DH/LF'er (Yoshida) and DH/3B/1B (Turner), all positions, I had way down on my top needs list. My list was: 1. SS 2. solid #1 or 2 SP 3. Closer (got one in Jansen) 4. solid RP'er (got one in Martin) 5. RF (I don't like forcing Dugo to RF after acquiring Yoshida) 6. SP #3/4 type (moved Whitlock here) 7. DH (Turner) 8. Catcher If we add Andrus or trade for a SS, I might change the grade to a C or C-. if we add Andrus and Fulmer, maybe a C+.

Everything was so rosy during and right after 2019, right?

It starts with the farm. It's not worth spending so big on players, unless you are pretty sure you can fill many slots on your roster with capable players at a low cost. That is much easier to do with a strong farm than by having a GM who is a genius at finding stars at $3-7M/1 yr contracts.

Before the Betts-Price trade, is what I should have said, or the team Bloom inherited.

It happened before that.

The guy you construct in your head is not me. Yes, I have been wrong and freely admit it often. You never do. Instead, you double and triple down and deny saying things, like saying Bloom is to blame for the Sale extension and that saying "You hate Bogey, and his defense, too." does not mean you said I hated Bogey. yes, rinse and repeat fabrications enough that you believe them, yourself.

No, but he gets the reports, or at least should have.- Ole Red

I'm not against the idea. I was pretty much on an island when I suggested I'd go as high as $400M/14 for Betts. Now, that seems like an underpayment for someone like him. I'm just saying, a team runs the risk of becoming like the Angels, if you can't or won't pay for a supporting cast or build a strong enough farm to create a strong surrounding group of teammates.

I'm thinking 70-90 is the likely range, unless we add some consequential players before opening day.

I believe this, too- maybe just not as soon as many here wish it to be. (Having a clear plan does not mean it will happen, either.) It all comes down to what was expected 3 years ago, 2 years ago, 1 year ago, and now. Those who saw the 2020 team as very similar to the 2018 team, and they didn't think slashing the budget and forbidding top prospect trades would affect the results are disappointed. Those who saw the writing on the wall, expected some bumps along the way to rebuilding a team worthy of glory. Some, I'm sure, are inbetween- maybe most.