moonslav59

Even with Dave Dombrowski, we never seem to get past our A-B-C-D's.

What's with all the C-B's and B-C's? Ben Cherrington Chaim Bloom Craig Breslow

The fact is, he did not trade any of the Sox prospects- no matter where they were ranked, nationally. His highest prospect traded after the Sale trade was #6 Beeks. By definition, there were higher, and theoretically better ones that could have been traded, but were not. Certainly, Devers was on everyone's radar, but of course, he was not a prospect by the time period I was talking about. These were: (Remember, back in 2018 and 2019, teams were more willing to take farther-away prospects than they seem to do, now.) Summer 2018: 1. Chavis 2. Mata 3. Houck 4. Casas 5. Groome 6. Beeks (traded for Nate) 7. Shawaryn 8. Ockimey 9. Decker 10. Chatham Granted, after Beeks, we would not have gotten anyone good, in trade, but the need for a couple RP'ers was high, and they don't usually need top prospects to obtain. By winter '18, Dalbec, DHern and Antoni Flores joined the top 10. By the 2019 deadline, Duran (#3), Feltman (#10) and Jimenez (#8) had joined the top 10. No, there were no more Moncada and Espinoza's left, but there were better prospects than Beeks in the system, and none were traded after Sale- 6 years ago!

I'm pretty sure DD was not happy about the push to trade Betts and Price in the summer of 2019. Apparently, a winning stretch changed the plan. I'm pretty sure it was not DD's idea to let Kimbrell and Kelly's slots go unfilled, the winter before 2019 and summer of '19. I can't prove he wanted to trade some more prospects to fill some needs, but it does seem to be his MO. There was obvious friction building up between him and the higher ups, and it's not a big stretch to think it might have been related to a change in direction, which included more focus on the farm than the big club and more money being spent. When it comes to who made the choice between Bloom and upper brass not to trade prospects, it might be kind of like the who came first- the chicken or the egg argument, where there is no defining answer. I think JH & Co. hired Bloom, because he fit into their plan to make the farm a higher priority. He willingly took the job and understood the concept, because he had lived it for his whole career.They did not need to pressure him not to trade top prospects: it was just something they all mutually agreed on as a guideline or concept. Maybe, there was no firm mandate from above, but the overall strategy was clear to everyone, from top to bottom.

Apparently, the more you get out and hear more and more talk like this, the better understanding you have of the game and the needs of the team. These guys really know what they are talking about!.

After the Sale trade in Dec 2016, the only semi-major trade was Beeks for Nate. I would not call the Espinal for Pearce trade or the Buttrey for Kinsler trade as "major." I'd say a change happened over DD's last 2.5 years, but if you want to start at the 2018 deadline, then it was over his last 1.2 years. My point was, the big trades stipped during the end of DD's regime and continued through all of Bloom's years. The reasons why is up for debate.

Sports talk radio, here around Houston, is full of people blaming Dusty Baker for the Astros loss. Some are blaming the loss of Click and those let go after the cheating scandal. Of course, it doesn't seem to rise to the level of Sox fan vitriol, but it is still pretty bad, considering this is a team that has made the ALCS for many years in a row.

O'Neil does have power from the right side, but do we really need another LF'er? I said, "I'd do it" a few minutes ago, but now I'm not so sure. We need a big RHB who plays CF or RF well.

Here are the '23 playoff ERAs of the top AZ pitchers by IP: 5.24 Gallen (22 IP) 2.65 Kelly (17) 2.70 Pfaadt (17) 2.53 Thompson (11) 0.00 Ginkel (9) 0.00 Sewald (8) These guys sure turned it around, except for their ace.

I was for "buying" (and more than just Urias) at the deadline, but in hindsight, I'm not sure it would have worked. In hindsight, we could have... Traded Paxton in a three-way for someone like Civale, but even he did not do well for the Rays. I'm not sure trading for Montgomery would have been enough. I was not for selling off the whole farm or even major pieces for a shot at 2023. If we traded for a longer term player, or someone we ended up extending, then I'd have been fine with trading a top prospect or two..

I'd do that.

That's the general idea of trading prospects to improve the current 26 man roster. Knowing Bloom, he'd have traded Mayer for someone who got hurt or declined, suddenly. Choosing the right major players has not been his strong suit. His near miss on Eflin might be the closest he ever got to adding a high quality player that did well, afterwards.

I said DD did not trade any top prospects after the Sale trade. If you want to count #6 Beeks for Nate in the summer of 2018, then he did not trade any after the summer of 2018, despite not signing anyone to take Kimbrell or Kelly's spots in the pen. I see this as an indication that a change had occurred in the team's top priority, even before Bloom arrived. It is a theory. I feel DD probably wanted to trade for a closer. Before the deadline in 2019, he apparently came close to trading Betts & Price, so yes, I think a change occurred during DD's last year or 1.5 years. You are free to disagree. As for the farm vs the big club trade-off, it's not clear the big club has always been the top priority. Just because you think it should be, doesn't mean it was. Note: I'm not saying the big club was priority #2 or #3. It's hard to know what the plan was, or if the plan changed over the years. I'm just saying, I think the farm and 40 man roster depth was the first priority under Blooms first 2-3 years, and maybe all years. I also think that priority became #1 during DD's last 1 to 1.5 years with the Sox. It may or may not have been a source in the friction between him and and Kennedy/JH- whoever, that ultimately led to his leaving. It's my opinion, and I do think some events that happened and stopped happening support my theory.

I explained my position more fully as a stab at answering a vague question. Yes, WTH. Did I answer sufficiently for you?

I'd prefer he play RF, so it might take signing him and trading Dugo. That may also lessen the overall budget hit, so more can be spent on pitching. LF: Duran & Refsnyder (Yoshida) CF: Rafaela & Abreu (Duvall) RF: Duvall & Abreu (Refsnyder)

I'd be fine with him saying it, if it happens!

Certainly, there is a chance big prospects could have been traded, but chose not to, or came close but blew it or chickened out. I'm not trying to make excuses for Bloom. The only thing I really like about Bloom is his apparent building up of the farm and 40 man roster depth. Had he traded top prospects, that part might look worse, and know him, he might have blown such a trade. This is not about making Bloom look better. It's about why I think no top prospects were traded by DD or Bloom for 6 years. 2 GMs: one owner.

I have said, I think Bloom may have been told not to trade top prospects or to try hard to avoid it, in so many words. I have clearly said, it was just my opinion, and that the fact that no top prospects were traded by DD, in his last 2 years, shows there seemed to be a sea change in that area from the 13 months up to the Sale trade. I do not think it's some wild theory to think the organization made farm building the top or one of the top priorities of the organization from the end of 2018 to now, or at least 2019 to 2023. It's just a theory, and I have never stated it as fact.

My position that the no top prospect trades guideline or mandate was never meant as any sort of excuse for Bloom, anymore than it was one for DD's last 2 years. I was actually okay with the idea until this past winter and offseason, so I'm not excuse making. I liked the idea, until I felt we were close enough to make the jump.

I have no idea what your question means or how it relates to the point I made. IMO, upper management did not want us to trade away top prospects after the Sale trade. Whether it was a firm mandate, a strong guideline or just a suggestion is unknown. Maybe they didn't care, at all. We did make several vet for prospect deals. Almost all of our trade for a vet, included a prospect with them (Wong with Betts, Seabold w Pivetta, German w Ottavino, DHam w JBJ, Rosier w Hosmer....) Although this is a separate issue, is does point to the idea that building up the farm was a high priority- perhaps more so than building up the 26 man roster. It could just be a general top priority to build up the farm, and Bloom took that to an extreme that JH did not demand.

Duvall may have to be the one, unless we trade for one.

Sox 2023 WAR leaders: fWAR Crawford 2.4 C Sale 2.1 Pivetta 1.9 B Bello 1.6 Martin 1.5 Houck 1.2 Jansen 1.1 Paxton 1.0 0.8 Whitlock 0.8 Winckowski 0.7 Bernardino 0.4 Murphy 0.1 Schreiber bWAR 3.2 Martin 3.1 Bello 2.5 Crawford 2.4 Pivetta 1.9 Wink 1.7 Sale 1.3 Bernardino & Houck 1.1 Paxton 0.8 Schreiber 0.7 Jansen ... 0.2 Whitlokc ... 0.1 Murphy fWAR + bWAR/2 2.5 Crawford 2.4 Bello 2.2 Pivetta 2.4 Martin 1.9 Sale 1.4 Winckowski 1.3 Houck 1.1 Paxton 1.0 Bernardino 0.9 Jansen 0.5 Whitlock & Schreiber 0.3 Murphy Everyday Players bWAR + fWAR/2: 3.3 Devers 2.3 Dugo 2.3 Duran 2.0 Casas 1.7 Duvall 1.7 Turner 1.4 Wong 1.0 Yoshida 0.7 Abreu (28 gms) 0.5 Story (43 gms) 0.5 Reyes (64 gms) 0.4 Tapia (39 gms) 0.3 Refsnyder (89 gms) 0.2 Chang (39 gms) 0.2 EValdez (49 gms) 0.1 McGuire (72 gms) 0.1 urias (32 gms) 0.1 Rafaela (28 gms) -0.3 Arroyo (66 gms) -1.1 Kike (86 gms)

I know we won't sign 3 SP'ers, unless Breslow is a miracle worker. We'll be lucky to see us add 2 high quality SP'ers, this winter, despite seeming to have the funds and trade capital to pull it off, while still signing a big RH'd bat. Let's see what Breslow can do! I'm hoping for a big sea change, but will believe it when I see it.

There is no evidence to say he wasn't told, either. You state this as a "fact." I stated mine as an opinion, and have often agreed, there is no evidence to support it, OR NOT.

No, there isn't. You are right. It might have been all Bloom's call. They rarely made trades like that in TB, so maybe that was just "his thing." One aspect does kind of support the idea that it might have been a directive or "strong guideline" put in place by higher ups: DD stopped trading top prospects after the Sale trade. If you want to count the #6 Beeks for Nate at the 2018 deadline, then it stopped after that. I'm pretty sure DD probably wanted to replace Kimbrell and Kelly after 2018, and the budget seemed to be frozen, so my guess is, he wanted to make a trade but did not. Just a guess. It fits DD's profile. No proof. Not making any major prospect trades for the last 2 years of DD's regime seems telling, to me, but it's just an opinion. The Sale trade was Dec 2016- almost 8 years ago! The biggest trades since then? #6 Beeks for Nate- summer '18 #9 Aldo Ramirez for Schwarber- summer '21 I'm curious, if Breslow will pull the trigger on a big prospect trade, or not.