Maxbialystock

That's no good. Nothing left to argue about. Go back to saying he's a great defensive catcher. He caught over 80 games in 2015 and I didn't think he was that bad, especially not for a rookie. But I don't know what the pitchers or the manager thought. One thing is sure right now. With Hanley gone, Swihart is getting a lot more at bats. With Mookie out, he's playing RF too. With Wright pitching, Cora's even letting him catch. I don't know about refining his catching skills, but do know his hitting is very much on display.

I am fine with our current rotation, including Wright but not Pom, for now and for the postseason. Sale, Price, Pom, ERod, and Wright are all capable of shutting down even good lineups, but probably not for 8 or 9 (or maybe 7) innings.

Here's what you either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge. The judgment about catching skills is being made and has been made by the Sox. I am no expert. I did see him struggle with the knucklers in 2015 and appreciated that he did it. What you and MVP78 and other seem to be ignoring is that the front office and the coaching staffs in Boston and at Pawtucket apparently agree he is not a great fit for catcher. At the same time they recognize, as do we, that he is a good athlete and probably a good hitter although that is not a sure thing. Thus he is on the big club and has been the whole season. At the same time, however, he hasn't caught a single game, nor did he in spring training. So why are you mad at me for saying just maybe he ain't that good behind the plate? Thus the cleverness of letting him catch Wright tonight for as long as Wright lasts. he's caught him before. Cora is reluctant to let him catch any of the other starters. He could certainly use the at bats and he just might get a hit or two. And Leon and Vazquez are both probably happy they don't have to catch Wright--the same way Varitek didn't like catching Wakefield. Oh, and Cora gets to see Swihart work behind the plate. At the same time, however, it is hard for any objective observer to say the Sox are grooming Swihart to become a regular catcher. If tonight goes well, I see Swihart catching Wright regularly but otherwise filling in in the outfield or as DH. He also hasn't started at a corner infielder slot.

I'm not the only one misremembering. Two managers, two coaching staffs, and the entire FO have also forgotten what a sterling catcher Swihart is. He has now been in the Sox system for almost 7 years, and they can't see what a gem he is--a sure .900 OPS hitter and one of the best defensive catchers the Sox have ever had if not the best. I mean that 5.9 DWAR says it all. None so blind as those who refuse to see.

Agree passed balls are just one metric and one that can be discounted when catching a knuckleballer. But you continue to deflect the central question: do you seriously believe that a rookie catcher playing in just 83 games can legitimately earn a DWAR of +5.9? Surely you can see the absurdity of that.

Yep.

Actually, that was used on a game thread to explain why we needed JBJ playing--he was far more likely to K than to GIDP and would therefore conserve outs.

His bat was never "so great" and you know it. He was a #1 pick in 2011, so they are hoping it might be pretty good, but so far hard evidence is lacking. As for Swihart catching AAA games last year, maybe they were desperate, i don't know. I do know that he hasn't caught a single inning this year--and I think that includes spring training. Do you still believe that Swihart in his rookie year in 2015 when he had 16 passed balls was in fact six wins (+5.9 DWAR) better defensively than the average MLB catcher? I do think the fact that he is catching Wright tonight is suggestive and that I might be right about the Mirabelli comparison. That is, just maybe one way to keep Swihart in Boston is to say he catches Wright and relieves Vazquez and Leon of that burden. I frankly think Vazquez catches Wright better, but I'll bet he wouldn't mind letting Swihart do it. Nasty work, but Wright has shown this year--to my great surprise--he can be effective.

Fine. Ignore catcher ERA and assume catchers don't make pitchers better. Heck, even moonslav doesn't defend that thesis any more. That still leaves you defending a preposterous number--that Swihart, a rookie catcher with 16 passed balls in 2015 was defensively six wins better than the ordinary MLB catcher that year. It also doesn't match the fact that the Sox since 2015 have tried to convert Swihart to be more versatile--an outfielder, even a corner infielder--rather than have him continue to develop as a catcher.

All due respect--and you have everyone's respect--but I just don't see the depth argument when this team is 8-4 without Mookie, who really is a difference-maker. Moreover, in the final analysis Mr. Ramirez was/is really a DH, and that doesn't help our depth much. As moonslav has pointed out, acquiring JD and keeping Moreland were strong evidence that the Sox were thinking Hanley was expendable before this season started. Granted, the vesting option was a key consideration for acquiring JD and keeping Moreland. The only rationale for keeping Hanley and making that vesting option possible was not that he added depth, but that he brought great hitting--an OPS of .900 or better--and that was never going to happen.

Sure. Meanwhile, however, Pedey is under contract for I think two more years plus we have Holt and Nunez. So I don't see a need for a deal this year.

I might have misread you. If you mean a better hitter than Leon, Vazquez, and JBJ, I can't quarrel with that. I thought you meant the whole team.

I'm sorry, but that number is just downright laughable for a rookie catcher, who was converted to catcher by the Sox after they signed him in 2011 out of high school, to be 6 games better (wins above replacement) than the average MLB catcher for his defense alone. Absolutely laughable. As I have also pointed out, the team ERA was abysmal in 2015 with Swihart as the primary catcher.

Did you know that the 2015 team ERA for the Sox was 4.31, ranked 25th in MLB with Swihart as the primary catcher and that the team ERA improved in 2016 and again in 2017 when he wasn't catching at all?

I just looked up the catcher DWAR's in 2015, and Swihart was a -.4. Leon was a +.7. Swihart is unquestionably a good athlete and all around baseball player, but catcher is very much a specialty position requiring unique skills that take time to develop. On top of that, catchers have shorter careers, which is why Bryce Harper was converted from catcher to outfield the instant the Nationals picked him in the draft. Does anyone besides me remember Doug Mirabelli? He caught Tim Wakefield exclusively and was traded away or let go only to be brought back in a very dramatic way. I say again, catching is a specialized skill, and apparently the Sox don't see Swihart as having the requisite skills for full time duty unless or until, as happened in 2015, other guys go on the DL for extended periods. So I think tonight is an opportunity to again show Swihart's versatility--he can play the outfield, he can play the infield corners, he can catch, he can do it all--while also getting him some more at bats because in the end I think it is his bat which will secure him an MLB career.

I have never played fantasy baseball and consequently don't think in terms of trades even though I agree they have made a difference for the Sox, especially pitchers. Overall DD has done pretty well I think, but I see no compelling need for a trade right now. This particular group of players seems to have jelled despite individual weaknesses/failures.

Way over the top. Swihart has never shown that kind of potential. Not even close.

And he loves Donald Trump.

They were both on the 2015 Boston Red Sox when Swihart had 16 passed balls.

Exactly. Fenway Park is very photogenic but has lousy sight lines down the right side.

I don't think they are "something special," at least, not yet. But I do like the overall average of the five best--Sale, Price, Porcello, ERod, and Wright. Pom has been worthless.

Swihart is, if anything, worse at catching the knuckler than Vazquez. He had 16 passed balls in 2015.

FWIW, Sox to date are 3-3 vs. the Yankees and 2-2 vs. the Astros. I'm fine with a rotation of Sale, Price, Porcello, ERod, and Wright. Did you notice we beat the Astros ace of aces Saturday and their 2d best last night? Did you not know that in 2013 the Tigers ace of aces--same guy, Verlander--lost a pitching duel to John Lackey of the Sox in a key ALCS game?

Amazing all the notions about how to fix the lineup with Mookie out. He's one guy, not even a third of the order. The Sox are 8-4 when he misses a game or goes out early. How is that possible? Well, for one thing, the Sox dumped Hanley--addition by subtraction. That definitely helped. For another, other guys are rising to the occasion which is what moonslav predicted awhile ago before Mookie got hurt. Like everyone else, I want Mookie back ASAP, but meanwhile I kind of like what I am seeing.

Nobody ready, I suspect. He had thrown maybe 75 pitches after 6 and got the first guy out. Then the error by Nunez. Then the walk. As it was, we were lucky the HBP led to an injury delay and gave Barnes time to warm up.