Maxbialystock

I prefer to think Hill made some great pitches.

Another great call from a talksoxer. What insight, what boldness.

Great, great job, plus good calls by Plawecki. The hitters are all huddling on the bench asking for their mommies. Baseball is about more than showing up.

Agree on the first, but not as much on the 2d because the batter, when he is able, doesn't have to swing at pitches outside the strike. The strike zone is mostly for his benefit, not the pitcher's. You lost me on the 3d.

I hate to admit this, but I'm looking forward to this game and progress toward .500. Five straight wins would do that, but right now that's like climbing Mount Everest in sneakers and shorts and no guides.

I forgot at least half of that. Very well said. Crapshoot is a far better explanation than my lengthy posts.

I have argued against you on that point--for a whole bunch of reasons--but you could be right. You cannot be a Sox fan and not like Devers a ton. Watching him struggle, especially when we can see how hard he tries, is painful. He plays to win and is hugely frustrated right now.

I not only stand corrected, I thank you for the right distances. My analogy still works at 53 feet. I stand with Ted Williams, who said hitting a round ball with a round bat squarely is the most difficult skill in all sports. And right behind (or even with) that is pitching, with the addition that even a reliever will throw more pitches than a hitter will swing that bat in a given game. To me what makes baseball unique is the centrality of the hitter-pitcher confrontation. Real aficionados watch every at bat, every pitch, intently and remember what they saw. That ain't me, but I try. Thus was Barnes stint on the mound last night excruciating despite the happy outcome. I now agree with everyone who claims closers first and foremost must be fearless.

About Dugo. His DWAR to date is -1.3--the abominable outfielder. But for now I like him in RF despite that misplay last night. He's got the arm, which a rightfielder needs. Arroyo over Story at 2b. My, my. And Refsnyder over Kike in CF. And it looks like Bloom didn't DFA Devers despite all the complaints on the game thread last night. Oh, right. No one wanted to DFA him, but no one wanted him in the lineup either. When a player goes into a slump, the remedy is not to play him. That's what brought Bogey's swing back. Oh, wait. Cordero over Dalbec at 1b. Of course. And Plawecki catching Hill, which he did for Hill's last start.

I have not been on the fence about Hill. I think he's too old, can't pitch, whatever. But right now I don't mind him as the 5th starts. His last game, on the other hand, was masterful. Completely focused, no big pauses between pitches, no shake-offs, and he threw like a freaking knife thrower from 15 away vs. the actual 66 feet. There is nothing more I like than when I am wrong in underestimating a pitcher. 19 starts, 4 quality starts, 6 wins vs 5 losses, and an ERA of 4.32 and a WAR of +0.6. Not really worth $5M, but, compared to Eovaldi or Sale, much more valuable vs. his cost.

There is absolutely no evidence the Sox needed a closer in the 2021 postseason. No one on Talksox can disprove that. I will readily admit, however, that Uehara was absolutely needed and magnificent in the 2013 postseason. Kimbrel falls in between. He had a great 2018 season with 47 (?) saves, but his postseason ERA was 5.91. He got 6 saves because Cora stayed with him--and he finally came around. Whitlock has the repertoire of a starter. When he is on, which is usually, he can eat innings. Most closers rely on two pitches--this was absolutely true of Uehara (slow fastball, nasty splitter, great command, and tons of guts) and Kimbrel (upper 90's fastball and great knuckle curve). Consequently, they tend to pitch just the 9th--and then only when it's a close game and the Sox hopefully have the lead (many closers will pitch the 9th in a tie game). Also this, which I don't mind admitting. Last night it was clear Barnes wanted to be anywhere but on that mound. If allowed to, he would have taken 5 minutes between pitches. It was so bad that, after getting an out and putting 2 men on base (one on a walk), Cora--not the pitching coach, but Cora-jogged out there and bucked him up enough so that he would at least the ball and try to throw strikes. Anyway, my admission is that most relievers don't have the temperament to close. We saw that in Barnes last even though he closed with ease in the first half of last season. I'm not yet sure of Whitlock's temperament. I'm not saying Whitlock shouldn't or couldn't close, but am saying I lean toward more innings as a starter or two inning reliever, including closing when the situation merits it.

A fair point. The argument isn't really about any moves Cora made or didn't make in this game. This is, after all, a game thread. It's really about the incessant drumbeat in every game thread that Cora is incompetent and should be fired. I'm getting tired of it as are others. I have provided compelling evidence--which none of the boobirds has challenged--on why Cora will be back next year. Simply put, in four seasons, he managed the best season/team in Sox history, then had a down season (but a winning season) when the pitching fell off, then had to leave MLB (justifiably) for a shortened season in which the Sox really were terrible, than came back for 2021 and a splendid postseason, and is now trying to get to .500 with the 2d worst pitching staff in the AL. So, if you and the boobirds want me to stop, you have three easy options: 1) stop reading my posts; 2) stop the incessant drumbeat on firing Cora--I have no objection to discussions/arguments about whether any move was good or bad--or 3) address the larger issue of Cora's overall competence over five seasons (one of which he missed).

I never liked Porcello and was astounded when he got the Cy Young. He had a complete repertoire, but it wasn't that good. His cumulative WAR over 12 seasons was 18.8, which is an average of 1.5. And his cumulative salary was $127M, so he was paid $6.75 M per 1 WAR of performance. His 2018 WAR was 2.5 with 33 starts, so whoever said there is value in taking the ball every 5th game has a point. He contributed to the Sox best season ever.

That's typical when you can't think of an intelligent response.

Thanks. I overlooked 2019, which was probably why DD got fired. Sox went from 108-54 in 2018 to 84-78 the very next season. Everyone on Talksox went ape especially after the starters mostly pitched fewer innings in ST and the Sox started the season with an unprecedented 11 game west coast road trip on which they went 3-8. The lineup still had all those good hitters--Raffy (OPS vastly improved to .919), Bogey, Mookie, JDM, Beni, JBJ (OPS .738 with 21 dingers), Vazquez (.798), Moreland (.785). But the rotation was a shambles. ERod was the ace, 19-6 with an ERA of 3.81, but Porcello's ERA was 5.52, Sale 4.40, Price 4.28 (on 9 starts), Eovaldi 5.99 (on 12 starts). Last night the two big "fire Cora" points seemed to be not starting Arroyo and not pinch running for JDM in the 9th. To be perfectly honest, I have no quarrel with either point. Indeed, they are the stuff of game threads--and in this case good stuff. The problem is that the boobirds who post cite each instance as overwhelming evidence Cora is clueless and should be fired. As for Arroyo, I like him too, but at 2b, SS, or even 3b, but those slots are occupied by three of the Sox best players/hitters, and two of them, Story and Bogey, delivered last night. So did JDM. When we knew Story was about to return, I opined that maybe Arroyo could play 1b, but that was probably too risky at this point and with no prep for Arroyo. Plus, and the boobirds have all dismissed this simple fact as irrelevant, the Sox won the game by scoring 6 runs. Leaving Arroyo out and Devers in was not a bad decision. Pinch running for JDM in the 9th made sense. My guess is that Cora wanted him on 2d base before doing that. Watching the replay, I'm not sure a pinch runner would have scored from 1b because that ball was fielded cleanly and quickly, and the throw to the infield arrived about the time JDM hit 3b. I would like to argue that JDM could have come to bat again in extra innings, but with this bullpen I think that was very unlikely. However, the Sox won the game while scoring 6 runs. The boobirds also left out something about Barnes. I think all of us noticed he was not himself, maybe scared silly. But he did get the GIDP and the save right after--wait for it--Cora, not the pitching coach but Cora--went out to talk to him. He probably said something like: "just throw the dang ball and try to throw strikes. This is what you do. Forget all the other bs." Barnes threw two freaking fastballs, both near the middle of the plate--and by some miracle got the GIDP and a save. And the Sox won the game, which on this game thread has been seen as absolutely irrelevant. Barnes still stinks, and Cora should be fired. Managers are hired to be fired. I know that. But I like this guy. He is in his 4th season--2018, 2019, 2021, and 2022--and before this season he had 3 out of 3 winning seasons and two really brilliant postseasons (2018 and 2021). The Sox were absolutely awful in the truncated season, 2020, when Cora was rightfully banned from baseball because of stealing signals at Houston. So, once he'd done his time in coventry, Cora was rehired by an owner who in the past has never hesitated to fire managers. This season, with a team ERA that's next to the worst in the AL, the Sox still have a shot at .500 even though the postseason is very unlikely. A further word on the pitching. Much has been made on Talksox this year of Cora' presumed imbecilic failure to put the right guy in as the closer. As I've said before, one of my favorite Sox players ever was Uehara, he was at his best in the 2013 postseason. I like great closers. Kimbrel in 2018 was about as good as Uehara, but relied on an upper 90's fastball and big breaking knuckle curve--Uehara had a slow fast ball and a splitter. In the 2018 regular season Kimbrel had 42 freaking saves with an ERA of 2.74. However, in that glorious postseason when the Sox whipped the Yankees 3 games to 1, the Astros 4 games to 1, and the Dodgers 4 games to 1, Kimbrel's ERA was 5.91 (!!!!!!!). He still got 6 saves because his manager knew when to leave him in despite appalling evidence to the contrary.

Since you asked, Cora and I have absolutely nothing in common. But, unlike the rest of you, I don't have the memories of gnats. Cora managed this team to the best season the Sox ever had. Yup, he had the players, but there were tons of games in which he made the right moves. Then MLB kicked him out for a season--damaged goods. Plus John Henry has never been reluctant to dump managers he thinks aren't hacking it. But guess what? Without Cora the Sox absolutely stunk in 2020. And what happened in 2021 with Cora back--a nice 92 game season and a terrific postseason in which--and I can't say this too often--HE HAD NO FREAKING CLOSER AND THE SOX NEVER GOT A SAVE BUT DID GET ONE BLOWN SAVE IN THE SIXTH INNING OF A GAME SALE STARTED AND LASTED 2.2 INNING. You guys remember nothing. Do I also need to recite all the freaking injuries this year or that the Sox team ERA is 14th of 15 teams in the AL?

Ortiz had at least one slump worse and longer than this one and was a lot more experienced and ended up in the HOF. These days they have all kinds of video, computer analysis, etc. Plus of course the Sox have had at least 3 days off this month. I just think Raffy's very idiosyncratic swing might be hard to analyze and fix. He has terrific hand-eye coordination and relies on that more than a disciplined approach to hitting. He is the polar opposite of someone like Ted Williams--or JDM for that matter. But, since we're on that topic. Matt Barnes is having an absolutely horrible season, fully as bad as the last of last year when he didn't play in the postseason. So they put him on the IL for 2 months, and in the month he's been back his ERA is a decent 3.18 in 11 appearances and 12.2 innings, 2 holds, 2 saves, and 1 blown save. Tonight I thought he looked pretty scared, but he got the job done.

Could not agree more. Whitlock had no business in that game and should be DFA'd. Really dumb move getting him on that Rule 5 thing. Same goes for Devers. He is doing nothing for the Sox. Trade him.

He threw two fastballs right down the middle and got a GIDP.

His terrified. When he's confident, he pitches pretty quickly. Right now he wants to be anywhere but on that mound.

Don't forget the Sox are paying Price, Sale, and Eovaldi $63M this year. None are on the active roster. When he was on it, Eovaldi contributed a WAR of +0.9. Sale pitched in 2 games after the rib injury cost 3 months on the IL, then went right back on after the broken pinky from a line drive and then breaking his right wrist on/off his bike to ensure he wouldn't return this year. The Dodgers own Price and are paying him I think $14M for his .6 WAR. All three--Price, Sale, and Eovaldi--were aggressively hired by DD and contributed significantly to the 2018 WS season (probably the best Sox season ever). To date Wacha has the highest WAR on the pitching staff, 3.3, and is getting $7M. Next highest is Pivetta, WAR 2.4, being paid $2.65M. Whitlock, 2.2 WAR, paid $720K. Houck, WAR 1.6, $716K. Eovaldi WAR .9, salary $22M, Hill WAR .7, salary $5M. Also interesting are these salaries for former Sox players: JBJ $17M; Price $16M; Vazquez $4.5M; Diekman $2.3M, Robles $1.1M--plus 6 other guys for a combined $700K. And this. Attendance is going down. In 2013-2019 it was about 36K/game almost every year, with 2013 being the lowest at 35K. Then the pandemic. But this year it was back up to 35K-36K per game, a strong recovery helped by last year's excellent season. In the past week it's been around 30-31K/game.

Meh. Eck got tons of good comments on talksox when he announced he's retiring. They particularly admired his candor. I wasn't listening today (or most games), but do not see how anyone could put a positive spin on this game. There were absolutely no good signs. Pivetta stunk and the bullpen was worse--and that only confirms why the Sox team ERA is 14th of 15 teams in the AL. The Sox had 13 hits, including a double and 3 dingers, but just 4 runs thanks to 0 for 6 with RISP.

A note on DD. He's now the President of Baseball Operations for the Phillies, and this year they look to get to the postseason for the first time 2011. Apparently it helped to fire Joe Girardi in May when the Phillies were 22-29.

I trust Cora to give him the right role. As moonslav says, a good starter is far more valuable than the best closer simply because he eats a lot more innings. However, we don't yet know whether Whitlock can go 180 or more innings in a season. We do know he's good pitching more than one inning per outing because he has an excellent repertoire and pretty good command. At least in the John Henry era, the most successful closers were on Sox teams that already had pretty good pitching--a good rotation and some good relievers. That was not the case this year--the Sox pitching stunk.

Actually, that notion was largely sarcasm. I'm pissed at Dugo's defense, but agree his bat helps--except that his overall WAR is a measly 0.5.