Maxbialystock

Fine. I have said repeatedly that good closers have made a real difference for the Sox in past seasons, so I am certainly not against them. I just think this season and this pitching staff are way different from the norm, largely because of injuries. So, while I readily agree that Cora's managing has been out of the box, I also think it was called for. I believe that traditional closers are carefully managed and rarely go 2 innings and even more rarely pitch earlier in a game than the 8th or 9th inning. The top six closers (based on saves) in MLB have 29, 28, 28, 28, and 27 saves and have averaged innings/games as follows: 42 games/37 innings; 54/51; 43/43; 46/46; 49/48; and 48/48. Like I said, one inning marvels. Since he returned to the bullpen, Whitlock has pitched 11 games and 20 innings. In August he has pitched in 5 games for 9.2 innings. As Marty Feldstein once famously said, that's "Abby Normal." But it has worked. More than that, it's been necessary because the Sox pitching is so woeful.

I thought he also looked good the couple of times he started at SS. He is that unusual player who simply can't adjust to the outfield. HanRam was the same way, only worse. If Arroyo keeps hitting this way, I would move him to 1b once Story returns. I am absolutely shocked at the way Arroyo is hitting the dang ball because I wrote him off a long time ago. The mystery of baseball.

Agree completely. He's played just 81 of of 121 games, but still has the third highest WAR, 2.2 among the position players. His defense makes a real difference and his rbi's, still 2d most on the team and 9 more than Bogey, whose played 34 more games, have also helped. I do worry about the high altitude boost he got in Denver, but also think he's adjusting to a bunch of new pitchers.

I've griped a lot about the Sox the season, especially when they play the Rays, who just seem more professional in every phase of the game even though their hitting stinks--11th in the AL in runs scored and in team OPS. I think that attitude depend on the fact that year after year they have excellent pitching. I also think they have a better system for finding and developing players to be fundamentally sound. But the Orioles to me are different. Their enthusiasm--and I agree with that term--is generated by being 3 games above .500 vs 29 games below .500 just one year ago. And they are in the toughest division in MLB. They should be bounding out of their beds every freaking morning.

Not over analyzing, just guessing. Glad I'm wrong. But I'm not wrong about how Houck and Whitlock have been used this season. Yes, of course, I know you didn't explicitly say that the 9th inning is the only one that counts. But, when you ignore the fact that the Sox have been much more successful when Houck and Whitlock have been used in any capacity, including most of their games when they did not close, then I feel free to assert that implicitly the only inning that counts with you is the 9th. If that's unfair, then please tell me why you ignore that hard facts that the Sox are 14-6 in games in which Whitlock has pitched and 20-11 in games in which Houck has pitched. Since this is a game thread, let's look at what happened tonight. I contend that the Wacha was the heart and soul of this win with 5.2 innings of shutout ball--and with some excellent assistance from Kike's 2 run dinger, 2 or more hits by Plawecki, Arroyo, Dugo, and JDM, etc. for a grand total of 4 runs. We did not win because Schreiber and Whitlock were magnificent in relief even though Whitlock finally did get a save. The Sox were leading 3 to freaking nothing going into the 7th, and those two guys gave up 3 runs (but just 2 earned) and Whitlock got his save. I'm not saying that happens all the time or even a lot. But I am saying that those earlier innings mean a lot in terms of game outcome, and it should not be considered obtuse for a manager to use a really good pitcher earlier in the game than the 9th inning. And that includes--guess what--even starting a game. Good starters get the big bucks because they eat innings. And the greatest closers in the history of MLB couldn't and still can't get a save if their team is behind in the 9th inning. Yes, I agree Barnes and Robles stunk early on this season, but I have to remind you that neither Houck nor Whitlock had been a closer before this. Moreover, both were extremely useful last year when they pitched multiple innings on many outings. Houck even started. And it was a pretty good year. And this year, I hasten to add for the umpteenth time, has not been a disappointment because Houck and Whitlock weren't made closers on day one--they were needed for other purposes--but because the pitching staff is the 2d worst in the AL, because the hitting has been inconsistent, because the outfield/1B defense has been lousy, as has the baserunning.

FAKE NEWS. My, my. If that isn't a tell, I don't know what is. Old Red, so appropriate. I now understand why you ignore specific points. When do you break out with "lock him up, lock him up, lock him up?!!?"

Mookie was to me unaffordable, and I seriously doubt that, if he had stayed, the Sox pitching would be any better. In case you haven't noticed, the Sox team ERA is the 2d worst in the AL. As for Verdugo, last year we thought he was the steal of the century with his WAR of 2.2 and almost OK DWAR of -0.2. This year his WAR is +0.5 and his DWAR is -0.9, so I think we have a right to complain a little. Plus I don't happen to like that huge necklace he wears in the field. On the other hand, the hitters, especially our "big three" of Bogey, Raffy, and JDM, are tanking, and we badly need Dugo's bat.

It's the same spiel but with new evidence, which of course you choose to ignore. Just for once--and I know you don't want to do this--address the specifics of what I said. Once again, when Whitlock pitched in a game this year (before tonight), the Sox were 14-6. When Houck pitched, they were 20-11. To me those two very simple stats are incontestable evidence that both were well used. I might add that your argument depends heavily on saying that the only inning that counts is the 9th inning, and that is just wrong. And it is especially wrong when the pitching staff as a whole has the 2d worst (14th out of 15 teams) ERA in the American League.

A very fair assessment of Wacha. That said, it is abundantly clear to me that the epidemic of pitching injuries this year is like freaking COVID. I read recently that the CDC has stated they think they mishandled COVID from the outset. If you ask me--and you didn't--I would say the Sox medical and training staff have been flat on their butts this year. Forget arms and hamstrings and broken fingers, and just look at all the guys with back problems.

On day one he had two experienced closers in Barnes and Robles. He also had a dire need for Whitlock and Houck to pitch more than 1 inning every so often as is the norm for closers. When they pitched, they helped minimize the other teams' scoring. Try this on for size. In the games in which Whitlock pitched this year, the Sox are 14-6. In the games in which Houck has pitched, the Sox are 20-11. Get back to me when you can explain that success rate on how Cora used them.

If Kike's dinger does indeed augur well, he can help a ton both in the outfield and the lineup. Wacha is absolutely, positively the most consistent player on this team. Not the best--Devers is--but the most consistent. In his case, a won-lost record of 7-1 is meaningful.

Arroyo has had a good August (plus the last two days of July). Dugo's been great in August (OPS .999) and June (.905), but not in April (.653), May (.552), or July (626). His overall WAR only recently claimed back to +0.5 and is always dragged down by his DWAR of -0.9. Arroyo's DWAR is now an OK -0.1 (it was a lot worse in the outfield), and his overall WAR is +0.6.

I'm the culprit on Vazquez and said categorically he would not be missed. So far the Sox are 8-9 without him.

I can't watch because of the blackout restrictions. But did Verdugo just drive in a run, followed by Bogey and Devers once again both crapping out with a man on 3b?

Just stunning that the Sox take two from KC, then lose 8-2, followed by losing last night 15-10, a game in which no matter how much the Sox finally, finally showed they could score runs--10 runs, the most this moribund lineup had scored since July 10 (an 11-6 win over the Yankees)--the pitching staff showed there was no limit on the number of runs they could give up. Now Wacha is again off to a splendid start, 4 shutout innings so far, and this wretched lineup is determined not to score first. I am always appreciative of moonslav's accentuating the positive, but these guys just keep making it harder and harder. After last night's game the Sox ERA was 4.46, next to worst in the AL to KC's 4.66. Amazingly, the Sox have scored 541 runs, 4th best in the AL. Their team OPS is .737, 5th best in the AL. I try to cling to the fact that the pitching staff has been hit hard by injuries. And guess what? Everyone now seems to believe that with Schreiber and Whitlock, our closer problems are behind us. That's true, but good closers can't help if you don't have that lead going into the 9th inning. And to get to the 9th, you normally need some pretty decent pitching, both starters and middle relievers--and some hitting of course.

I'm being completely honest when I say that, as painful as a game like this is to watch, to me it's better that all the bad stuff happens in an unwinnable game. Winckowski didn't have it, and neither does the bullpen. So why not have the hitters, fielders, and baserunners screw up as well? Next up, Baltimore.

Just so the rest of you know--I'm the only real expert on these game threads. Just last night, for example, I lambasted Cora for starting Wacha when Winckowski was available

Yep.

That's not true. JDM, Bogey, and Devers are all playing exactly they way they have all August long. Maybe they are still pining for the departed Vazquez.

I'm mostly blaming Cora for tonight's debacle--with that disaster of a lineup he came up with. What the heck are those no-hit wonders Devers, Bogaerts, and JD Martinez doing in the game?

Actually, I often think of the entire Rays roster as no names--except that they signed Wander Franco to a pretty big contract. My guess is that Eck considers any player making less than $20M/year to be a no name guy. And last year the no name Rays had the most wins in the American League.

Tonight the Sox are up to their old tricks--can't hit, can't pitch, can't field, and can't run the bases. And they are doing this against a team who last their last 6 games and are 6-18 since the All-Star break.

Eck is an idiot. Calling them "no names" only pisses them off. Plus he seems oblivious to the glaring reality that the Sox name guys--Raffy, Bogey, and JDM, all of whom were on the All-Star Team--are in fact hitting like no names. Eck knows a whole lot more baseball than I could ever hope to, but it's stupid to insult guys.

Absolutely stunning numbers. You have no peer.

After an 86 freaking year drought, the Sox have won more WS titles, 4, in the 20 years John Henry has been the owner than any other MLB team. So to me it is absolutely unarguable that in those 20 years the Sox overall management has been the best there is in MLB. And the two truly big money clubs, the Yankees and Dodgers? They're the dummies. A quick pick at spotrac says that the Phillies ($242M in salaries this year) and Padres ($219M) are trending toward "money is no object." We'll see how they do. Both do currently have winning records. San Diego is 5th in attendance and Philadelphia 15th.