Kimmi

Huh. Go figure. Still too soon to tell, obviously, but it looks like we may get the player the Sox thought they were getting.

Well, it didn't end so well, but I'm glad you enjoyed yourself.

As I said, Ben should have had a better plan B in case the kids struggled. That said, 2014 was also a year of great underperformance. You expect youngsters to have growing pains. You would think that at least one of them would be okay. JBJ, Bogaerts, and Middlebrooks all struggled pretty badly. On top of that, our veterans were hitting poorly too. JBJ's struggles and losing Ellsbury that season would not have looked so bad if the rest of the team had performed up to expectations. I agree that we will not be able to fully assess Ellsbury's contract until the end of it.

After the way the 2011 team collapsed, I think the team would have rallied around Francona in 2012, knowing that they were at fault for the way they played down the stretch. I agree that it was probably time for Francona to go, but I believe that we would have seen a much different result in 2012 if he stayed. It might have been a mistake to try to convert Bard to a starter, but that was not the root of his problems. There were signs at the end of the previous season that Bard was struggling. I'm not convinced that he would have done any better had he stayed in the BP.

I agree that in 2013, it was a mistake to rely on too many untested rookies, without having a plan B. However, signing Ellsbury to a 7 year deal was not the solution to that. The solution to that was having a better short term back up plan in case JBJ faltered. Victorino and Buchholz were still under contract. Re-signing Napoli was not a bad plan. It just didn't work. There were several here who were even suggesting at the beginning of the season not to be so sure that Napoli would be gone after this season.

I guess that depends on your definition of "long term". They lost the next 2 years, but I think this team looks great for the next several years, provided the right moves are made this offseason. In other words, the moves the FO made in 2013 (or in 2014 or 2015) did not sacrifice the team's future.

I'll put it this way. If Francona had remained the manager that year, I bet the team would have rallied around him and would have contended that season. And I say that with 100% conviction.

After the 2013 season, who did Ben really let go besides Ellsbury? Lester and Lackey were still on the team.

And it's not even the first years of the contract that you typically worry about.

You are forgetting that JBJ was actually the player that was in the equation at the time that Ellsbury became a free agent. Hanley was nowhere in the picture. The FO made a decision between signing Ells to a ridiculous contract, which it is, or going with a young, cost controlled defensively elite center fielder in JBJ. They went with the latter, which was the correct decision. JBJ didn't work out last year, opening the door for Mookie. However, having both Ells and Mookie was never really an option at the time of the signing, only in hindsight. I will say, though, that even in hindsight, signing Ells to that contract would have been a mistake.

I have never said that everything good that happened is Ben's brilliant creation and everything bad was not his fault. Did I not just post that the Lackey trade feels like a Ben move to me? Along with the Porcello and Hanley deals? Now, I have defended those moves because I can see the rationale behind them. However, I have also defended the Panda signing, even though I disagreed with it and think that it was Lucchino's brainchild, because I can see the rationale behind it as well. That said, anytime you have Bobby V as the manager, all bets are off. He alienated half the team before the season even started. IMO, it is difficult to give any kind of fair assessment to that team under that type of managerial circus. In short, here's the way I look at it. Ben, and the rest of the FO, get credit for building what should have been a contending team in each of those years, 2012 included, minus Larry's insistance on hiring Bobby V. The players get credit for winning the WS in 2013, and the players get the blame for not playing to expectations in 2014 and 2015. Bobby V gets the blame for 2012. Regardless of how the team did, going into the season, I felt that we had a contending team in each of those years. The FO is responsible for that. Good or bad, they are not responsible for what happens on the field - that's on the players and coaches. Ben will also get part credit for any future success the team gets involving players that were acquired under his watch.

No kidding. Isn't that what we have Yankees fans for?

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence when you consider the history between Theo and Lucchino.

Read that Dombrowski tried to trade for JBJ last offseason. He seems to be a big JBJ fan. Reading between the lines, it sounds like his preference would be to keep Bradley rather than trade him.

The Sox gave us another tease last night. A rather disappointing ending, but I can understand why Shaw swung at the first pitch. Bases loaded, the pitcher is likely going to groove one to try to get ahead in the count.

I was being facetious with my Dombrowski post. They have just been playing better ball for the most part.

I was just pointing out that the FO says that he has been working at it, so the accusations of laziness appear to be false. Also, you do not know whether Hanley can turn this around or not, at least to the point of him being a ~3 WAR player.

There is no proof that Panda was a Lucchino move, just as there is no proof that he was not. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it was. Just my opinion, based on what I've read. That is just not the type of deal that seems like the type that Ben likes to make.

It was exactly good team building for the long run. The parts that were brought in to supplement were signed on short term deals. The plan was to keep the team competitive in the short term while building for the long term. The short term part did not work out the past two years, but IMO, the long term goal is right where Ben wanted it to be. As I've said before, the Sox should have signed Lester last ST. That was a big time screw up. Ellsbury? Not so much. Yes, the team missed him in 2014, but his contract was too much. Is there anybody who would want Ells and his contract now over Mookie? Anybody?

He's been hitting well since coming off the DL. Still needs some more work behind the plate, but under the circumstances, he has does an admirable job this season. Like I said, it's a tough call.

OK, I thought he looked like the same guy in Spud's avatar, but I wasn't sure. I have never seen Trailer Park Boys, but I've heard you all mention it. It doesn't sound like my type of show. I don't watch much tv anyway, especially during baseball season, other than the games.

The 2012 season really needs to be thrown out. The Bobby Valentine factor cannot be overlooked. In the other 3 years, the plan during each offseason was solid. In 2013, it worked, In the other 2 years, it didn't. That doesn't mean that it was a fluke, just because it only worked one year out of the 3. Yes, a lot of things went right, but that is the case with every team that wins the WS. That's like saying every WS Championship was a fluke. Honestly, I think 2014 and 2015 are more of a fluke than 2013. Despite those who claim that they saw this coming, there is not one person who can honestly say that they saw things being anywhere near this bad. Even those who predicted a 3rd or 4th place finish this season felt like we had a chance to stay in contention. This season has most definitely been a fluke, or as some like to call it, an enigma.

So, because Koji was never expected to close for us, Ben got lucky? No, if Ben were lucky, then either Bailey or Hanrahan would have worked out. Not everything went perfectly for the 2013 team, like so many claim. It's the fact that that team had good depth when something went wrong that they were able to keep stride. That is not luck or fluky, that is good team building.

Ben had his share of "bad" moves. I think Hanley and Porcello were both his moves. I think Panda was Lucchino's. Miley feels like Ben move, as does the Lackey trade. With the hiring of Dombrowski, Ben was being demoted. Again, the message sent by the owners was clear. There is no other way to take that. If you would be okay staying in that situation, then more power to you. I would not, and I don't blame Ben one bit for stepping down.

Ben did not have complete autonomy with Lucchino on board, but he was able to make many decisions. And at least ownership shared in his philosophy. Part of Dombrowski's deal and the reason the Sox were able to sign him was that he was given complete control of baseball ops. Cherington would have suffered a huge demotion, in principle, despite retaining his title of GM. You can argue this all you want, but you know I'm right about this. I doubt that most GMs would have done any differently in his shoes.