FredLynn

I would prefer a GM from outside the organization. This franchise needs to clean house and welcome new ideas. Epstein trained Cherington; it could be Theo redux if he becomes the GM.

I think we are probably about 2-3 years away right now. I cannot see an elite SP that is going to come available this year. CJ Wilson is not that guy. I remember that someone posted a list of SP FAs for after NEXT year, and that list is impressive. I would rather accept mediocrity next year and try to win a ring in 2013 than go after someone who isn't really the answer. Our problem is pitching; that much is obvious. I just don't see us solving that plus the clubhouse issues in one year, no matter who is managing or who the GM is. Also, in case anyone missed it, here is an article with some of the details of the scope of the clubhouse problems: http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/12/red_sox_unity_dedication_dissolved_during_epic_late_season_collapse/?p1=News_links

While I will certainly not miss Epstein, I do appreciate his role in winning two rings. Its time for a change though. I wish him the best of luck, as I do Francona.

Both Epstein and Francona were responsible for the me me me and anything goes attitude in the clubhouse. Those factors played as big a role as our lack of pitching in our failures this year. Once those two are gone rebuilding can commence, assuming we get the right people in those positions.

Yes, we would/should have made it into the playoffs. But just how far would we have gone? Not far at all IMHO. We finished NINTH in overall pitching in the league this year. How were we going to make a serious run with guys like Lackey, Wakefield, Albers, Miller, Morales, and Weiland on the staff? And who is responsible for our pitching staff being in such dire straits? Thats right: Theo Epstein. He really isn't a very good judge of FA talent at all.

Yeah, and thanks for Cameron, Lackey, Crawford, Lugo, Renteria, Smoltz, Penny, Gagne, Clement, Schoenweiss, Wakefield over the past two years and all the rest of the dregs you have allowed to wear the Sox uniform. Cherington should not be hired; he is an insider. If we want the me me me attitude to end, the new GM should come from outside the organization.

So do his results. This guy just doesn't know when to hang them up. Of course, as he says, "The fans deserve to see me go for the all time Red Sox win record" for pitchers. He exemplifies the me me me attitude that cost this team the playoffs this year. The only way he comes back is if Epstein comes back because that selfish jerk is part of the good 'ol boy network and Epstein doesn't have the good judgement to let him go.

I thought we were discussing THIS year. Over his career its clear that Lester has been better. This year he was not the ace of the team, and as I said, I don't care what happened in 2010. Frankly, neither guy is what we need for a #1 IMO. Both are very good #2s for a playoff team hoping for a ring.

Good debate..gotta split for the sunset run.

Aces do better when it really matters than to lay an egg for half of his starts when his team really needs him to show up. Lester is a good pitcher; I am glad he is on our team. He is our #2 SP, but he is certainly not an ace. Beckett was our ace this year. Lester: 15-9, 3.47 (17th in the AL) Beckett: 13-7, 2.89 (5th in the AL) These numbers are not small sample sizes. Beckett was our ace this year, not Lester. Lester isn't even an ace on his own team.

Lets look at what Lester did in September more closely. He had six starts and lasted more than six innings twice when he lasted seven innings each time. In half of his starts he last 5, 4, and 2.2 innings. Against the Yankees and the Rays he was 0 and 4 in September. He surrendered at least four runs in half his start. He won just once in September and lost five times. His ERA was over 5. Thats not the profile of an ace on my team.

Not agreeing with someone is not the same as ignoring them. His opinion certainly has validity; I just don't agree with him. If he were being ignored there would be no dialogue.

Lets get back to THIS year, the ONLY year that matters. In September, when his team really needed him, his ERA was 5.40 with a record of 1-5. Some ace. In fact, in Aug and Sept combined his ERA was over 4. Aces lead the team; they are at their best when the team needs them the most. Lester has never been a consistent ace. Beckett has. The others on my list have too. Not Lester. Maybe some day.

I don't care now what he did in 2007 or 2008. I care what he did THIS year. Thats the nature of the game. You know that. Its very much a "what have you done for me lately" game. More names, with the above caveat: Sabathia, Hamels, Weaver, Kershaw, Kennedy, Shields, and even Beckett are all better than Lester this year. Lester was good-35th in ERA in baseball. Maybe we are discussing a difference in definitions. A SP can be the best on his team and still not be a true ace. I would say that even on our team this year Lester was not the ace; Beckett was, despite his September. I do not agree that Lester excelled last year. Sorry.

I think we could have made the playoffs if we had grabbed BOTH Bedard AND Harden-barely. But we would have been bounced pretty quickly anyway. Frankly, I am glad it turned out this way. This FORCES our owners to act. That has started with the firing (yes, he WAS fired) of Francona, and it must continue with the firing of our GM, our strength and conditioning staff, and our medical staff (they should have ordered an MRI on Buchholtz in July, when his symptoms started and not waited until August when the test was done and showed a fracture which, if diagnosed and treated in a timely manner, would have allowed him to return in September and yes, I am a doctor; and they blew it with Ellsbury last year too). Anyone who thinks that this current ninth place staff will somehow turn it around to be in the top four is in fantasyland. Wholesale changes are needed. Picking up CJ Wilson, the top FA SP this year, will be insufficient and, frankly, I do not trust Epstein to make the proper choices in the selection of ANY FAs because of his track record with them. If we can get a new competent GM the rebuilding process for our pitching staff and to a lesser extent the position players can begin. Drew will need to be replace; Youkilis cannot withstand the rigors of 3B; and Ortiz is too concerned about ME ME ME and his contract for my liking. We have issues at catcher as well; Salty will need someone to help him out; Varitek is finished. I think that as the team now stands we could make the playoffs next year, but we cannot win a ring until the pitching staff is fixed.

Forsythe, let me clarify: I do think that we have the players to MAKE the playoffs. What I was referring to is being a factor once we get in. A team can bash its way into the postseason, but you must have good to excellent pitching to hope to contend for a ring. Lets look at who we have: Beckett/Lester: serviceable #2-3 SPs, but certainly not aces Buchholtz: one great year, thats it. An X factor. Lackey: the worst SP in baseball and we are stuck with him Wakefield: he will be back if Epstein remains. Part of "the good 'ol boy network" Bard will likely become our closer when Papelbon leaves, and its likely, IMO, that he will take the best deal which probably won't be offered by us. Aceves: could start. Thats really where he belongs, but his results as a SP have not been nearly as good as as a reliever Albers: are you kidding me? Reverted to his career norms late in the year Wheeler: likely gone at $3M/y Jenks: yup, he's ours. Signed for another year. Morales: inconsistent Atchison: up and down from Pawtucket. Good mop up guy, but not good for much else DiceK: gone until August at least. Unlikely to pitch again for the team, fortunately Bowden, Tazawa, Doubront etc: have proven nothing so far. I think thats a fair assessment. Remember: we finish NINTH in the AL in overall ERA. While its possible that some guys could have career years, I am not counting on it. As far as the offense goes, we will score a lot of runs, even with Crawford performing poorly, and even with Gonzalez fattening up his statistics against lower tier clubs (except the Rangers) and choking against the Rays and Yankees and Tigers. As I said, we can bash our way into the playoffs, perhaps, but that will be worth nothing if our pitching staff cannot stop the other guys from scoring. That WILL NOT HAPPEN with the current pitching staff. Period.

In fairness, Clement did get hit in the head and was never the same. Still, the list of his failures is extensive. Here's an article about it: The Epstein 11: 2003: Keith Foulke, three years/$20.5 million. (Stabilized the closer position. Closed out 2004 World Series.) 2004: Edgar Renteria, four years/$40 million. (Bought out after one dismal season for an additional $12 million. Renteria played in Boston for one year for $22 million.) 2005: Julio Lugo, four years/$36 million. (Hit .251 in three seasons. Part of the revolving door for Red Sox shortstops since Epstein traded Nomar Garciaparra.) 2005: Matt Clement, three years/$25 million. (An 18-11 record with a 5.09 ERA in two seasons. One All-Star Game.) 2006: Coco Crisp, three years/$15.5 million (Was put in the unfortunate position of replacing Damon, who had 197 hits in his final year in Boston. Ultimately replaced by the emerging Ellsbury.) 2007: Daisuke Matsuzaka, six years/$52 million, plus a $52 million posting fee that did not count against payroll. (Won 2007 World Series. A .620 career winning percentage. Hasn't pitched 170 innings in a season since debuting in 2007. Has averaged five wins over the last three seasons.) 2007: JD Drew, five years/$70 million. (Average season in Boston: 121 games, .264 average, 16 HR, 57 RBI.) 2010: John Lackey, five years,/$82.5 million. (A 26-23 record, 5.26 ERA, 375 IP, 436 hits so far.) 2010: Mike Cameron, two years/$15.5 million. (A .219 average in 81 games over two seasons. Traded in July of this year. The team moved Ellsbury out of center field upon acquiring Cameron.) 2010: Adrian Beltre, one year/$10 million. (.321 AVG, 49 2B, 28 HR, 102 RBI, All-Star.) 2011: Carl Crawford, seven years/$142 million. (Dismal first season in Boston, but too early to pass judgment.) It might appear at first glance that Ortiz, Epstein's biggest player acquisition score, is conspicuously missing from that list. Ortiz certainly became a star in Boston, but he was not brought there to be one. In December 2002 at the Opryland Hotel in Nashville, Tenn., during Epstein's first winter meetings as GM of the Red Sox, he jousted with the A's Beane over the true object of their affection, Arizona slugger Erubiel Durazo. Durazo went to Oakland and Epstein settled for Jeremy Giambi. When spring training broke in 2003, Ortiz was fourth on the depth chart, behind Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand and Kevin Millar. Epstein might not be responsible for total authorship of every one of those deals. Ownership has its predilections, and general managers often make deals of which they disapprove. But in Epstein's nine years, those 11 major signings totaled $543.5 million; during the same period, the Tampa Bay Rays' entire payroll amounted to $315.8 million on 225 players. Of those 11, only one, perhaps two -- Foulke and Beltre -- can be considered unqualified successes. The 2003 Red Sox introduced then abandoned a disastrous Bill James concept called the "closer-by-committee," the thought being that a real save situation might not occur in the ninth inning, but rather in, say, the seventh. That winter, Epstein signed Foulke, and Boston won the World Series a year later. Beane is sometimes maligned for being lionized despite never winning an ALCS game (never mind advancing to the World Series), but there is no question he revolutionized the front-office game -- who gets jobs, how those jobs are done and what statistical and cultural values are important -- and transformed the position of general manager from anonymous to glamorous. But if the position is now worthy of Hollywood and big money and credit for a team's architecture, it is only appropriate that accountability be part of the equation. If the man running the game from the dugout is now considered a "mid-level manager," according to the Moneyball doctrine founded by Sandy Alderson and perfected by Beane and by Epstein, maybe he isn't the one whose bags should be packed when the plan fails.