cp176

Russel was my hero. Before Jordan, there was the "Doc" (Irving) and before him another great one in Connie Hawkins.

oh but wait jad - We have been schooled and it has been spoken - greatness can only be measured by the number of rings on the fingers - Russel's run of championships puts this debate to rest. i say this with a little facetious smile on my face for sure. Russell is the greatest champion in the game of basketball but in terms of him being the greatest player not even I am going that far. I really only am mentioning this to show how ridiculous i think that it is when someone tries to convince me of any player's or coach's talent and elevation being determined by championships won as a deciding criteria. There have been plenty of bad coaches who have been on title teams and there have been plenty of great coaches who never won one. Respectfully as always - i think that Alex Cora did a great job last year and he may someday be considered a great coach as for me the job Dick Williams did in '67 was part of a miracle.

Maybe the weather plays a role - what do you think?

Wait - Do you actually know any fans of a New England sports team who claim to be truly happy with their chosen team? In this country thems could be fightin words. You being Canadian of course can get away with saying that but we truly are never really happy about very much.

Some of you youngins just don't get it. Put all your defensive metric material aside and go conjure up some vintage video of Lynn roaming cf for the Sox and then get back to me. Hey I bet you guys don't believe that Russell is the greatest bb who has ever played either! lol

How old are you anyway Slasher?

Good - I'm glad about the chuckle my friend! I am actually a fan of JBJ also but I couldn't keep my stripes from showing on this one though.

hmm - pretty sure I got that Bell - Sincerely hope that no one on the planet thinks that there is any real comparison between these two from anything other than a defensive perspective. Like I said, it has been a few years and maybe I "misremember" but I recall Lynn looking pretty damn good out there.

Oh and don't forget when we discuss the merits of using various metrics to prove our points, we have also been schooled in how ridiculous it is to have your best hitter in the 3 hole. When was the last time that JD batted anywhere else? Cora is just too old school for me! (lol - just me being a wise ass.) Oh wait, I forgot, the batting order isn't important at all - lol.

With the latest set back, Pedroia's story continues just to get worse and sadder. I think that at this time it is a legit discussion as to whether or not he could help us even if if he was able to come back and play. It is very sad but as much as we hear "You can't count him out" - "if anybody can do it, he can" - reality seems to be saying something different. I understand that we are going to keep paying him but even if he was able to make an appearance on the field, I'm not sure if he could really help us at this point. It was a wonderful run but personally I'm going to accept what is looking inevitable.

Isn't it odd how good he looked to me over the course of his time in Boston. What I saw I guess just doesn't fit with the statistical line. Can you believe that? Wow - Just for the record - I like what JBJ does in the field but any comparison with Freddie during his tenure in Boston makes me chuckle but hey I'm one of those silly guys who believes in having complete ballplayers when you can find them.

Having watched the games, none of the players that you mentioned are incapable of doing the jobs that they have been asked to do. I clearly do not see what others are seeing.

Chavis may not have played second before and he may not be the ideal second baseman but make no mistake about it at this time he is a second baseman. He seems to be making the plays so far that he is expected to make. We got to ride this run he is on for sure. He may be out there for a long time.

No question about that. If the rest of the team hits, he will stay in centerfield for us. His weakness at the plate can be absorbed easily - much like using Leon behind the plate. What concerns me a little is that according to what I am reading, the "metrics" don't seem to be to supportive of him being an elite fielder right now. I am fine with what he does in the field personally. You and I are eye test importance kind of guys thus I find it hypocritical that he is still being staunchly defended by the people who have been telling us about how many things we just don't get right. Did you notice where JD was batting yesterday in the order. Third - imagine that. Is it time for us to be schooled again about how this is a horrible place for him to be batting or do we get to read about the order in which these guys hit doesn't really make much difference? I'm with Cora on this one. I like a good one in the 3 spot - arguably our best hitter in this case!

This could be the night to get Jackie going!!!

lol - You think that I wasn't impressed with the win total? Regardless, I still expected them to win. I'm very happy for Cora but for me it certainly doesn't make him a better manager than Dick Williams was in '67. I do like the concept of using wins and championships to determine who your best players and managers are though of course - It clearly confirms what I have always known that Bill Russell continues to be the greatest bb player of all time and Red of course the greatest coach.

It is a personal opinion based on what your criteria is that you use. Times have changed. I want Cora to be successful and i do think that Francona was as well. All good managers in their time here - hopefully Cora sticks around. No offense to either Francona or Cora but with the talent they have and had, I think that most of us would be disappointed if they did not win. The test of any coach is is your team better at the end of a season then they are at the beginning? Did they improve? The '67 Sox surpassed all of our expectations.

I'm not really disagreeing with you here. At least I don't think that I am. I think that it is human nature to give too much credit to a coach when a team wins and too much blame when they don't. In 1967, I truly think that Dick Williams was the perfect fit for this team. he did an excellent job. That doesn't mean that I think that he was a world beater, just the right guy at the right time. Did what needed to be done to help change a sad culture of losing that had been established and accepted as the norm. For that reason alone, he obviously is going to be near the top of my list. And just for the record, I think that giving a manager 20% of a teams credit for wins and losses is grossly too high. Equal shares for all. Good managers will take the blame for the losses but really want the credit for the wins to go to their players. It is ok with me too if people disagree with me about Williams. I was 16 and never thought that I would see anything close to what we saw in 1967 and and the springboard of success that it has led to. 1. If Conigliaro had not been injured I still think that we would have won that series in '67. 2. If Rice had not been injured in '75, i think that we would have won that one as well.

The maturation and the gelling happened in 1967 with Williams leading the way. To not give an ample share of the credit to the manager for that is no being realistic in my opinion. Don't forget Mike Andrews and Joe Foy out there either. I also think that people tend to forget that this lineup was actually held together on occasion by quite a number of past their prime professionals brought in because of the youth and the injuries that occurred. We obviously have an ample share of Yankee haters on here but given the state of our catching in 1967, I could not have been happier when a way past his prime Elston Howard was acquired. Our young stars were really great but there is no way that team had a right to think that they would be playing in the World Series that fall. They all get to share the credit equally of course except for Yaz (who should get most of it). I don't think that is ever going to be possible to come to consensus as to who was the best this and that. I'm guilty I guess of not thinking that winning a title gives a manager a free pass when it comes to how good they are or were. 1967 and 2018 in that order I think are my two most memorable seasons. Part of the reason would be because they had the right guys running the show.

I'm going to hate seeing Chavis moved to the outfield but they are going to have to come up with some original way of keeping him with us when Pedroia returns for at least as long as he continues to be a plus in the lineup. i would not move Betts anywhere. He is a comfortable gold glover in a tough to play right field for us. If Chavis continues to hit, he won't be going anywhere. Tough tough decisions to be made. The easy way out is to say that if the team is winning, JBJ stays put. i don't think that it is going to be that easy. He is going to have to start doing something at the plate in order to stay in that everyday lineup. Maybe tonight - JBJ.

You likely are right. JBJ might come down with a phantom injury as well. It is a shame what is going on with him for sure. He is a good one. talented and homegrown. Reality sucks sometimes.

By the way - I think the days of covering for JBJ and his elite glove are likely coming to an end. What he gives us does not in any way make him indispensable no matter how much people happen to like him. i hope that he starts to hit because if he doesn't he won't continue to get a free pass.

I will never forget the night that happened. Listening to the old transistor - couldn't believe it. For the record, Williams was a great manager. Just what we needed at the time. Someone to manage a very young team with very very few established stars. Impossible to compare of course but the talent level of the 75, 78, and 86 red sox teams laid over what was out there in 67. I have enjoyed our titles as much as the nest guy, but the fact that we won doesn't in itself make any manager better than another one. Sometimes you have the talent and are expected to win. Just stay to hell out of the way. Williams built a team out of not a whole lot. obviously if I had to I would give my vote to him.

We all know what this man is capable of in the field. He proved it once again last night. We likely all want him to be out there forever but the fact remains - he has to hit just a little - as in a little more than he is right now. What he is doing now is not enough. Maybe that catch, a real game saver, will get something good going for him even at the plate. i bet we all hope so.

Do you really see what I am saying here Moon though? Having anyone bunt to move runners around in that situation, just doesn't get done. Not today and not yesterday. I am going with the thought that they really are losing confidence in Jackie. Don't get me wrong - hell of a bunt but really. I believe that there is a time to attempt to move runners over anyway you can including by bunting but this really seemed like an odd time to do it. IMO - if JBJ doesn't pick up the pace soon, he will sit more and sadly ultimately he will be gone.