Elktonnick

Interesting point! I began to think that his tendency to look for the walk hurt him in the end. He seemed to lose the strike zone and umpires no longer gave him the close pitch. He appeared that he forgot how to hit.

I think you miss the point. The problem with the internet is that posts live forever. Because there is the appearrance of anonymity people believe they can post anything. They post things they would never say in person, polite company or in print. I know of several instances where someone from their home computer posted something on a message board that was similar in nature to what the young man posted above. To make a long story short his employer found out and found that anonymous post embarassing. The poster was discharged. I tell all my employees be careful what one posts online. While I may ignore something and may or may not respond, you have no idea who reads this stuff and it lives forever. I know you think we are older then dirt, and sometimes I feel as though I am, but you have no idea to whom you are talking and it never hurts to be nice and civil. It doesn't cost anything to do so. That's not to say one can't disagree but there is no need to be crude when doing so.

That's the problem with the internet. There is no excuse for bad behavior. I guess when you are young and irresponsible you are young and irresponsibile. If you want your opinions respected then behave respectfully otherwise it is unintelligible gibberish.

I am fifty/fifty on Ortiz. I do think if we concentrate on pitching then these other questions should fall into place. But we are too left handed plus Ortiz with A-Gon at first makes it really tough during interleague play. Sizemore makes no sense, no matter how cheap. It's still a roster spot.

"Some have commented that the soccer franchise seems to be getting more attention but maybe it is performing better from top to bottom. That is the way it is in organizations with several business units. The business units that perform get the assets and the attention. Those that don't ....well don't. " I think you could be on to something. In 09 Liverpool was reportedly worth over a billion dllrs now it is valued at 550 million. Henry and Co paid only 450 million for it. Man U and the Dallas Cowboys are estimated to be the most valuable sports teams in the world. It would appear that there is more probability for valuation growth with Liverpool than the Red Sox.

Son from your public prrofile you are only 17 and only a junior in high school. So you have a lot to learn. You are needlessly crude and abusive. Fred coached kids your age some of whom have signed professional contracts and I believe one has made the show. Since you don't respect your elders, you should at least respect someone who probably forgotton more about the game then you will ever learn. What you say has little weight. You respect is meaningless.

Actually the point of this thread was an objective discussion of OPS its limitations and its advantages. I had hoped for an objective unemotional discussion and possible exposure to other possible data sets and metrics that can improve our collective knowldge how best to evaluate players and their performance. I submit that there should be a buffet to choose from. Some are obviously more complex than others, hence easier to use. Some require data that is difficult to obtain. As has been said the perfect is the enemy of the good. Since none of us here are professionally paid for this analysis ( I assume that is case and could be wrong) it is a hobby and should be taken as such. In the end some may prefer one metric over another or none at all. Just as some may say the Red Sox had a disasterous season, others mediocre and others above average. All three are correct depending on ones perspective. I want to read others opinion. I may actually learn something.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Yea, I know what their disagreements are. I gave a quick summation. Nevertheless they THE sabermatreicans have other disagreemtns with OP+ Here is just one of his posts to illustraate: "mcsnide: the choice is not OPS+ or wOBA. The choice is OPS+ or RC+. RC+ is better. There’s no debate here. In either case, no reader is going to calculate it, relying on B-R.com or Fangraphs to calculate for them anyway. So, again, why does OPS+ exist? " This was part of a long discussion over several weeks about various metrics. I cite to illustrate that I have researched the subject before I posted. If you had ( researched) your haste to have a gotcha moment wouldn't have failed as it had. You made an intemperate remark with the clear inference that Tango et al weren't sabermetricians. and I was somehow wrong for stating that they were. You were clearly wrong to do so. You now appear to admit that error by citing the above. I already said as much in an earlier post when I said OP+ is okay for the average fan. I was well aware of their objections all of them because I had taken the time to read their entire thread. I practice what I preach when I post. No insult intended but you tend to be sloppy and leap before you look. And don't be so quick to call someone out next time. It isn't nice!

Sorry you are incorrect, yet again. He and his group can certainly be properly called Sabermetriciaans by any accepte definition of the term. Tom Tango, (aka Tangotiger) runs the Tango on Baseball website, where one will find a large number of research pieces devoted to sabermetrics. His inspirations have been Pete Palmer and Bill James, and is thankful for the generosity of Retrosheet and Baseball1 in providing data to the public. He works as a consultant for major league teams in hockey, and has worked as one in baseball. Born and raised in Canada, he now resides in New Jersey with his family. Mitchel Lichtman has been doing sabermetric research for over 17 years. He is currently the senior analyst for a major league team. He has a B.S. degree from Cornell University and a J.D. from the University of Nevada. He lives in the Finger Lakes Region of N.Y. with his family, three dogs, and three cats. Andrew Dolphin has been working on sports statistics for over 10 years; some of his work is posted on the Dolphin computer rankings website. He has a B.S. from Harvey Mudd College and a Ph.D. from the University of Washington. He lives in Tucson, Arizona. I can heartily recommend a couple of books that are on my desk right now: John Dewan's THE FIELDING BIBLE ... and a book called THE BOOK: Playing the Percentages in Baseball, by a trio of talented sabermetricians. Both are, to my mind, essential. — Rob Neyer, Author of Neyer/James Guide To Pitchers Tango et al authored the "The Book" If Rob Neyer calls them sabermetricians whom am I to disagree. I suggest you may want to more research and know what you are talking about before you post, telling other people to stop. I could go on but what's the point.

Can't disagree with that.

That is an excellent point.

Actually Fred and I have had battles over the years. Some were pretty intense. I've never met him. He says he is a Red Sox fan and I believe him. But whether he is or isn't is not the point, he represents a valid well educated (in baseball terms) point of view. His point of view should be considered on its own merits not because he presents them.

Actually the sabermetricians ( the real experts in the field) tend to deprecate OPS+ . Go on to Tango's website and read his blog. There are very detailed discussions. OPS and OPS + are okay for the average fan but they have their biases and limitations is a quick summation of their point of view.

As if you don't already have teenage girls with s***** arguments on this board. If you don't like my posts feel free to ignore them. I won't be offended. BTW I post on several board as it suits me. I for one enjoyed my discussion with user. I thought he was an interesting and effective interlocutor. It very helpful to me to understand how strongly those who favor sabermetrics feel about the subject. The fact that you didn't, says more about your needing to lighten up and let some new insights into the mix.

You are right but I played the game. BTW during his time with the Sox i lived in Latin America and didn't get to see or listen to a ML game for three years.

I answered the question there is no best measure IMO The sabermetricians opine linear wieghts for hitting but in the final analysis for the reasons as I have articulated in other threads I believe there is no one measure. Go read Tango' book and log on to his blog and read his opinion for yourself. It is an excellent wbsite for those love that approach to baseball.

It is a combination of factor and measures. That's why being a GM is more art than science. BTW If I were advising the FO I'd do psychological profiles on players. Even a simple personality test such as the Myers Briggs would have been useful. Attutude and temperment has been devalued by this FO. Why did this team underpreform in September? From where I sat and what I saw and based on some of the clubhouse dynamics now being reported, the collapse was probably predictable if someone knew what they were looking for.

I wasn't. I was a Braves fan until 1953 when they left Boston. Does that make me a bandwagon fan:lol: