Elktonnick

For what it's worth the retiring of Pesky's number was more in recognition of what he meant to the Red Sox franchise after his playing days were over. If he hadn't been such a presence in the organization in his post playing days, if instead he pursued some other occupation well outside of baseball it is doubtful that his number would have been retired. IMO

Too late now!

When the Red Sox retired Pesky's number they changed the criteria about being in the HOF in order to have one's number retired..

Not for those who know how to do it. They are called psychologists, sociologists, psychiatrists etc etc etc etc. I suppose you include Henry as one who unfairly criticized your boy Ben by firing him.

I corrected that with respect to you. You aren't a sychophant your defense of Cherrington is more filial like I said. What I was referring by ad hominum was because a particular individual says something it isn't valid because that person said it. That is what is meant by ad hominum argumentum. What I said about Washington wasn't misleading or untrue it was accurate just because you couldn't find find it on the web. Like I said concern about Washington's clubhouse chemistry has been longstanding and not just last year.

Tony La Russa said he wasn't suited for Boston, for one. Now I know you will spend the next two days trying to find some proof on the net and when you can't say he never said it. Well he did. BTW again you misconstrued my point I merely said that when they made mistakes it was because they didn't adequately consider human factors. You attempt to excuse that failure by saying they are difficult to assess. ( Why you feel the need to constantly try and excuse Ben,Theo or whomever's shortcomings is a puzzlement) Human factors aren't any more difficult to assess then any other factors determining outcomes they just require a different skill set.

It was well known that the Nats had chemistry problems. It had been discussed virtually every year and predictions made. It was also well known that Matt Williams was on the hot seat going into 2015. That's why Rizzo cleaned house after this disasterous year. I don't resort to ad hominum attacks . BTW for all I know you are a 14 year old girl. My original point stands that human factors and team chemistry can make teams not perform up to stats and predictions

Again you totally misconstrued what I wrote. I said was that their failures were generally due to not adequately consideration of the human factors. I never mentioned scouting. I never said that they didn't consider scouting. I never said that they were generally failures nor that they weren't successful. What I thought was clear from my post was when they made mistakes it was because that they didn't give adequate consideration to the human factor like the Renteria acquistion ten years ago for example.

I listen to MLB radio daily and live outside the metro Baltimore/Washington area. It was a common enough topic Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't mean it wasn't discussed. BTW I never said it was exclusive to 2015. This has been a longstanding problem with the Nats going on for several years. At the end of 2014 concerns were raised about Matt Williams handling of the bullpen and his pitchers causing resentment in the clubhouse which would explode in 2015 as we all saw. In March of 2014 "The players voting Harper overrated is just a byproduct of his unnecessarily bad reputation." again which exploded after his fight with Papelbon the next year. In January 2015 . This appeared: "While his on-field upside is high, is it reasonable for Mike Rizzo to add the same thing that has hurt the Nats in years past? As a team, these Washington Nationals are affected by clubhouse issues. Look at 2013, when there were constant arguments and even a live exhibition between Jayson Werth and Gio Gonzalez. It’s not right for Mike Rizzo to bring in a guy that could damper the bonds created by last season’s success. What’s done is done, but Yunel Escobar is likely to cause more harm than help." And so true it was.

What is in explicable is the "shoehorning"(to use your term) players into positions that they were ill suited. BC tried it with Bard with disastrous results, Hanley in left and now at 1st,we can only hope. Regarding Sandoval, the warning signs were there but they choose to ignore them. His defensive WAR was never really that good (if you rely on such stats) and his refusal to want a weight clause should have given pause.

Fenway Park was 19th in home runs in 2015 but 2nd in doubles. Solid observation

They will retire his number one day but not this year. It looks like they are in thee process of retiring numbers periodically whenever they need a PR boost. They appear to want to generate positive buzz by having a public discussion about retiring numbers. I think Tony C, Ortiz, Evans, and Veritek's numbers will all be retired in the next few years if Henry continues to own the team.

I don't know if that is universally true. Take the Washington Nationals for example. They looked good on paper but haven't performed well on the field. Their failure to perform on the field has been predicted by many analysts who recognized the poor team chemistry and bad management. There are no metrics to measure team chemistry other than results.

I think the 2003 -2015 Red Sox were a team that relied heavily on stats and less on the human factors. Now the team was successful but it also had its failures. If one objectively looks at its failures they generally fall into the category of failing to adequately take into consideration those human factors when constructing a winning team.

Signing Panda without a weight clause is tantamount to malfeasance. Ben (or Larry or both) could have been fired on that stupidity alone.

What you can't and won't admit no matter whose fault it was Ben didn't have Henry's confidence to be the nbr 1. It is Henry who is in a better position then any of us to make that judgement.

I also think that Henry didn't think that Ben was suited for the nbr 1 job. As long as Larry Lucchino was around Ben may have had the title but as Henry often said "Larry runs the Red Sox." I've come to the opinion that with Larry leaving John Henry simply never saw Ben as having the skills to be the chief of baseball operations without a Larry Lucchino and a Jermy Kaperstein around. I think it is no coincidence that Ben's not being slotted for the top job coincides with Larry's departure.

I am not saying a farm system isn't important but a winning ML franchise is much more than merely its farm system. I think you think because someone builds a good farm system that that person has the skill set to run the entire organization. I don't. As I said earlier Ben was promoted beyond his level of competency. Once he held the top job he wants nothing else. I'd have no problem with Ben serving in a subordinate capacity.

Amen!

Bob Ryan in 2013 wrote the following: "But we do not exaggerate. We do not embellish. Tony Conigliaro was the absolute Real Deal. I think the people who believe Tony C would have become an absolute monster for American League pitchers as he marched through his 20s and 30s pretty much have it right. Tony C was 22 years old when that ball hit him in the face, causing lifetime eyesight problems that led to an extremely shortened career. He was the fastest ever to reach 100 home runs. He was a babe. He was just learning. And he was going to play 81 games a year in Fenway. Gee, a righthanded power hitter with a fly ball swing in Fenway, someone who would get stronger and smarter about the game. Whaddya think? Tony Conigliaro was enormously talented. Please remember, when he came back in 1969 after missing the final six weeks of the 1967 season and all of the 1968 season, he was fooling us all. He hit 20 homers and drove in 82 to become the logical winner of the Comeback Player of the Year Award, and he followed that up with 36-116 production in 1970. And then the Red Sox traded him! Don’t get me started on that one. OK, did they know he was doing it with one eye? I don’t think so. If they did, they sure didn’t tell the Angels. My only point is that he was doing it with one eye, and there aren’t enough laudatory adjectives to describe that achievement. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that a man who could do that against major league pitching with one eye and who already had more than 100 homers in the books before age 23 was going to have a pretty good career. No, I don’t think we’re exaggerating anything. Tony C was going to Cooperstown the night he was hit, and he wasn’t going to have any need to buy a ticket when he got there, if you know what I mean. The Tony C story is sad on every level. It’s a “Life Isn’t Fair” story. It’s a “What If?” story. It’s a what-if-he-had-listened-to-people-and-stopped-hanging-over-the-plate story. Today is Aug. 18, and I will spend a lot of it thinking about Tony C. I’ll try to focus on the good stuff, but it’s hard. My best to the family." Now I don't know whether the Red Sox should retire Tony C's number or not. But I think there is no doubt that Tony C was an outstanding ballplayer and a potential Hall of Famer before he got beaned.

Tony C had the potential to be an All Star regularly which he was one year. To say he had the "good luck" to be hurt is a mean spirited slur unless you were being sarcastic. The injury was horrific. I remember it well. Quite frankly the only lucky thing about it was he was lucky he wasn't killed. The injury ruined his career. He never was the same ballplayer after that, both physically and mentally.

The Red Sox had no choice but to trade Lackey ?????? I can't stand Lackey and am glad they got rid of him but to say they had no choice but to trade him is to be charitable a bit of a stretch.

No it doesn't. It merely speaks poorly and how often computer projections can be wrong. What truly speaks volumes is the person who knew Ben best professionally, John Henry, lost confidence in his judgement and replaced him along with Larry Luchhino. I think the only reason Henry kept Ben as much authority as he had was because he had Luchhino to oversee him. Once Luchhino was out of the picture so was Ben. BTW Larry Luchhino was more responsible for the championship teams then was Ben. Ben was merely his factotum.

The Phillies job was not the nbr 1 job. The Phillies hired Andy MacPhail for that position early in 2015 to replace Gilick.. Any baseball operations person in Philadelphia will work for him. The Phillies job was the equivalent of the job that Cherrington was offered in Boston under Dombrowski. The fact that Boston has a good farm system isn't Ben's doing but Theo's. Regardless the person responsible for creating a good farm system doesn't mean that person is qualified nor capable of being a good general manager or chief of baseball operations. The farm system can be created leisurely compared to trying to create a winning major league franchise.

Solid point