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In any other year I would be fully on board with letting Pap go and moving on to Bard. That may still be the right thing to do. In fact if I can rationalize in my own mind what happened to Bard (and so far I have not been able to do that) then I can come to terms with letting Pap go and going with Bard. Yes Bard's mechanics went to hell and maybe Bard was just another guy Young was unable to help. Imagine if Bards mechanics go to hell and he is the closer? Uuuuuugly! On the opposite end of the pole I don't expect Paps to be at all interested in the oft hoped for Home Town Discount either. If anything it will be a Home Town Surcharge and maybe that is the killer for keeping Pap. He will just be too costly. Maybe the money gets crazy for Paps early and makes the decision easier for the Sox. Given all the s*** that hit the fan I have sorta' gotten used to the idea that having three good starters and a very good and proven closer in Paps and then the everyday players that the Sox have that are solid would be a good place to start to prepare for 2012. I can say that I buy the idea of not resigning Paps easier than seeing either Beckett or Lester or Buckholtz go. I guess in truth it will be their job to make sure that Bard is ready to take the reins and if in fact they are, then by all means, resigning Paps at the absolute max number he is ever going to command in his career makes no sense. Bard does not have to be exactly the same closer as Paps. He just needs to be able to be the closer. It does sort of make you appreciate Rivera for what he has accomplished. The Yanks have gotten away with a lotta' ******** over the years by knowing they just needed to get to the 9th inning. Being able to perform as a pitcher as well as Rivera has at a time in the game when the opposition hitters are for the most part as focused as they are ever going to be is pretty amazing.

This is exactly right. A good comparison would be Holland in Sunday night's game against the Cards. He was never in the middle of the plate until he tired very late, his arm angle changed and he could no longer keep the ball down. The ball was creeping closer to the middle of the plate as well but usually high enough so that the batter could not even tomahawk it. Fortunately for him his last 5-6 pitches were the worst 5-6 pitches he had thrown in a row all night. If anything he was close to being wild outside the strike zone and the ball no longer had much movement. I don't necessarily mean worst pitches in relation to balls and strikes but worst in that he clearly could no longer keep the ball down and there was no longer any movement on anything. Lackey was almost always in the middle of the plate all season long. The most telling statistic for him was swinging strikes. His swinging strikes went down drastically for 2010 and then went straight off a cliff for 2011. The only pitch he could get batters to miss at all was his slider and even that was abysmal.

It will be an interesting night to see how the ratings battle works out between WS and MNF. Football teams not all that interesting and the WS is tied at 2-2 with Carpenter going for Cards. WS will probably still have a hard time with MNF.

Actually MLB is about to give the Red Sox the biggest get out of jail card free maybe in the history of the game. The extra wild card team will likely make it possible for Boston to claim victory as long as we can just nose our way into that last playoff spot.

That is a totally specious argument and if you don't know why I sure and hell am not going to spend the time to explain it to you.

I would say that the starting pitcher would have had a much better chance of not being lifted if the score was 5-0 instead of 4-0 since you can't hit a 5 run home run. However based on where the ball was going to the last batter Holland faced, based on the same set of circumstances I would be surprised to have seen Holland left in the game by Leland and I even doubt that Verlander would have been allowed to stay again based on where the last 5-6 pitches Holland threw were going. In fact the last pitch he threw was a dead nuts lollypop. It was the only true lollypop that he threw in the entire game. He clearly had no control of where that pitch was going. Had it been a few inches lower it would have very likely not come back to him from the catcher. It had nothing on it and it was dead straight.

And Holland went 116 tonight, was allowed to pitch into the 9th inning and was lifted based on the same logic Managers all used to use. He was getting his pitches up in the strike zone clearly evidenced by the last batter he was allowed to face. That happens because the pitchers arm is tiring and that is why he was lifted. He was allowed to make his case but there was no way the ball was not going to be taken from his hands at that point.

There are guys that have bionic arms. Nolan Ryan fits into that category as a pitcher but I don't think anything that he is doing in Texas is an effort to overlay what he was capable of onto those pitchers. There may have been 10 guys in the history of baseball with an arm like Ryan's and he is as aware of that as anybody. It will likely take a number of years for the records to compile so that we can really see what benefit the Rangers get from the systemwide changes that they have made. I do agree that regardless of the fact that work that strengthens the arm would produce more innings pitched without injury, agents are going to be on the other side of any such argument. In fact the agents are just about the only guys that truly benefit from the reduced number of complete games and innings pitched by pitchers. Pitchers likely benefit monetarily but they will never be considered in the same class as the Gibsons', Ryans', Seavers' and Koufax' of the world and well they should not be.

The antitrust exception has made for strange bedfellows between the government and MLB for a long time now. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when that sham of a Clemens trial was worked out.

Thank God we have a close competitive WS to watch. There is always so much tension in these tight low scoring games. They always seem more exciting to me even than close slugfests. You are always expecting the close slugfest to get blown open at some point and you end up at 12-8 or something like that. Really impressed with the way Holland stepped up tonight. That said, Texas has a real test ahead of it in beating Carpenter in game 5. They would be in a real hole down 3-2 going back to St. Louis for the last two games.

Wow, Holland has been on the black with everything tonight.

Yadi is an every day lesson in why it pays in baseball to be strong up the middle and why the most important aspect of defensive strength up the middle is the catcher. Yadi gets a ball in the dirt that pulls him toward first base and turns that into a pick of Kinsler playing the role of fly to Yadi's venus fly trap. When you have that much field awareness at catcher it rubs off on the rest of the defense. How oblivious would it look for a 1st or 3rd baseman to be out of position when Yadi wants to make one of those quick release throws of his. In our case, ball in the dirt like that, we are just hoping the thing does not bounce up and decapitate Salty. That is about what the other defenders are thinkin' and for that matter that is likely what Salty is thinkin'. Molina catching: Geez I better be ready. Yadi might toss that thing down here anytime Salty catching: Geez I better be ready. I might have to run in and resuscitate our catcher after he gets clonked in the adams apple by a pitch.

I remember Sandy mainly for one of the only true 12 to 6 curve balls I have ever seen in my entire life. it broke hard late as well and for the life of me you would see guys looking like they were swinging at air...just no shot. For most of his career he just carried those two pitches....that exploding fastball of his that at times must have actually been scary for hitters with all that late movement right at the plate and then he would drop that curve on them. It just did not seem fair. Actually I would dearly love to catch an old game clip of him taken from the center field TV position. It was hard not to be amazed at what the ball would do.

Not to oversimplify the Cherington comment on beer in the clubhouse but to simply take the discussion in a different direction....Cherington may simply be telling us that it is the Manager's rice bowl with regard to the decision to have beer in the clubhouse at least in the Red Sox organization. Now I will be the first to say that there are times when I am amused at who gets to do what in that theme park called Fenway World (LL gets the black hat and Yul Brynner role). However that would also be a way to take another shot at Tito who more than being thrown under the bus has been kicked out and down the street like a tin can. "Here, your turn to kick it". Surely it was time for Tito to go but it is getting to the point where I can't remember when a Boston Manager was allowed to leave more than one step ahead of the electric chair.

Gotta' agree with e1 on this one. Cards have been preparing for this year and I just don't think that at the end of the day Albert will want to leave. I suspect that the Cards will make the numbers attractive enough and I just don't think Albert cares about being in the limelight of NY or Boston when he can be the undisputed king of St. Louis, playing on a team that oh by the way manages to make the playoffs and play well enough there to often make it to the WS. If Albert gets an inkling that LaRussa might be done with baseball that might have an impact.

Boy I wonder how these two teams bull pens are going to survive these three games given the level of intensity focus and concentration we usually see in WS baseball.

Whoa there big fella' not so fast. Crawford chased bad pitch after bad pitch and became the biggest sucker for balls starting at his knees and moving lower and away from him that I have ever seen at least for someone with real talent which Carl has. Both his batting average and the number of walks will improve if he does not chase so many bad pitches and gets ahead in counts for a change. Surely it is the task of all pitchers to fool the batter but it got way out of control for Carl this past season. However as I have noted previously, chasing balls low and away should be easier to solve than chasing after rising fastballs so Carl has a good shot at it....I hope!

I rest my case.

Latest news....Moon options Lackey to their AAA team on Venus. Lackey is insulted and storms off to Mars in a huff.

Oh OK so Nolan Ryan is lying about pitch count and the Rangers. There is a rational argument for ya'. What basis would Nolan Ryan have for doing that? By the way, if the Rangers do not use pitch count to remove their starters and their average is about where the league average is then what basis is there to believe that pitch count should be the arbiter of whether a pitcher comes out as opposed to simply using the traditional method to judge whether or not a pitcher should come out. I should also point out that it will take some time for Ryan's newly adopted regimen to actually develop more shoulder strength in pitchers and it likely even take more time for the numbers to validate it as not all Ranger pitchers will stay in the Ranger's system or even come from the Rangers system. His starting pitchers now also pitch batting practice for the Rangers another newly adopted part of Ryan's regimen for the Rangers.

Right, which is why Nolan Ryan has thrown the pitch count out on its miserable ass as the arbiter of whether Texas Ranger pitchers will be taken out of games. I suspect we are going to see the pendulum swing back toward the middle with pitch counts continuing to be recorded but used as I am suggesting they should be used in part for the reason you suggest, to protect arms. However I do not believe it will long remain as the arbiter of whether a pitcher should come out or not. The real goal should be.to make pitchers stronger, more able to pitch more AND better and extend the number of pitches between injury. There is no benefit to a major league team to continually remove its best pitchers and allow the competition to hit against its poorest pitchers. In fact you could argue that the biggest sin of all is to have your best pitcher out there throwing bullets for some number of pitches and remove him solely pitch count based only to have some reliever come in and open the flood gates thus losing the game. How much of an asset did your starting pitcher represent in that game?

We are talking here about major league baseball. While pitch counts in youth leagues likely have some value, often it is the types of pitches that young arms are allowed to throw that have more bearing than total numbers of pitches. You make it sound like there is no evidence that a major league starting pitcher is tiring so we must use a number to determine that he come out of the game. Before pitch counts came along the accepted method for understanding that the pitcher should come out of the game was his inability to throw his pitches. Virtually all starting pitchers throw over the top or 3/4. When your arm begins to tire it starts to drop down out of its normal position and you get balls that are now up in the strike zone, balls that are usually deposited in the grand stands. In the case of fastball pitchers, there fastball no longer explodes at the plate (Their stuff is gone). The pitch is dead straight and that pitch is deposited in the same grand stands. There is not that much mystery to this thing. Managers may decide to ignore that their pitcher is tiring but there is not much mystery about whether or not he is tiring. In addition the idea that you are saving arms is a joke. As you condition arms for less work, it then takes less to damage them. You are never going to save injury to major league pitchers arms with pitch counts. In fact most of the evidence suggests that virtually nothing has changed with regard to injury to pitchers as it relates to pitch count in the major leagues. While I am sounding like the pitch count should be completely eliminated I really don't believe that. I just don't think it should be used as the single arbiter of whether a pitcher comes out of a game or not. It should simply be a record that pitchers, their coaches and managers use just like any other tool. There is one thing that has changed dramatically that I believe has had a negative impact on pitchers arms....the shrinking strike zone. While it is probably easy to understand how that would impact complete games, it also has an impact on how the pitcher pitches. You want to start to jam up a pitchers arm? Make him try to get finer and finer. Suddenly he will not be throwing as freely as he should be and that is a stress on his arm all its own. Ya' wanna' cut down on arm injury in major league baseball....get some of these idiot umpires to recognize and reward the pitcher for a good pitch. Why the hell do you think these games are going on for 4 hours now?

And that is how it should be However there are teams that use pitch count exclusively as the arbiter of when a starting pitcher comes out of a game. There has even been some that have used the same number for all their starting pitchers...how screwed up is that? It should be no surprise under the circumstances that starting pitchers are no longer even in condition to pitch complete games. If you had no other evidence to suggest it is an aberration look at total number of complete games pitched since the pitch count came into fashion vs before it came into fashion. It has been more telling and has had more of an impact than even the lowered pitching mound which I would also suggests has some impact on starting pitchers and complete games.

Well OK, I will take a shot: because the pitch count disregards whether the pitcher is actually tired or not and establishes in some cases a completely arbitrary number that dictates the he comes out of the game. The result is what you see. Inherently the number of pitches that a starting pitcher would throw is going to come down under those circumstances. There is no option but for it to come down. That then has its own result. Pitchers no longer even think in terms of complete games and WHAT A SHOCK....the number of complete games goes down. The pitch count is an aberration. It is evil and it should be burned at the stake. While on the topic, I will take Nolan Ryan and his opinion over the jackass Sox medical staff every day and twice on Sunday.

Another bit of evidence for what passes for "contemporary" thinking over at Yawkey Way. What the f**k do the medical staff jackasses know about how many pitches a pitcher should pitch. Pitch count is already a bad idea but making your medical staff the arbiter tells me how little these knuckleheads actually know about baseball. As far as I am concerned they can take their computers and shove them up their own asses sideways....idiots!