jung

When they play this badly....anybody should be considered as trade bait if it results in improvement. Unless and until they resolve this disaster of s rotation, any everyday player should be vulnerable to trade. Unfortunately, nobody the Sox have whose absence could be mitigated, works for bringing the Sox a real deal pitcher than Pedey. Pedey is the only guy that the Sox could built a trade package around that could make that work. In addition, Pedey may not be able to be the player that he once was for this team. While Pedey's defense at 2nd is excellent, excellence at 2nd is not the same thing as excellence at SS. If Pedey packaged the right way can bring me a legitimate 1 for the rotation, I trade Pedey in a heartbeat....as long as I can trade him out of the AL East and maybe trade hi out of the AL entirely.

So after having seen two years of what happens when your rotation does not have a legitimate 1 you want to build another rotation without a legitimate 1. You are simply moving the problem 1 year farther out and dooming this team to another year of "oh all they have to do is go 6 out of the next 10" which turns into "all they have to do is go 7 for the next 10" which inevitably turns into "all the have to do is win 15 out of the next 15...easy right".

They can't and won't unload Crawford. They are stuck with that contract. Ells is not going to settle for what the Sox will offer him to stay in Boston. So Cafardo can put that pipe dream where it belongs. The likely best move with Ells is to try to extend him and when that fails just let him go. Maybe he will recognize that he is far from the 2011 player that he was and will take reasonable money to stay. But I would not bank on it. It will take big money to keep him and the Sox will simply not risk $21M per + another $15-$18M per for two f***ing outfielders on a team that can not use all that speed effectively. Wake up! You trade Pedey cause he is the only guy the Sox have that can be a center piece to a trade that brings you pitching and I simply do not care what Pedey does. Without pitching this team goes nowhere and nobody else but Pedey in the middle of a multiplayer package will get you pitching. There is no other player that the Sox could put in the middle of a deal that would do that. The Sox are in no position to unload tons of prospects to get a pitcher in here. Everybody that would be demanded would be somebody destined to start for this team in the near term. Yes you also get the added benefit of sending a message to the stiffs left on this team that anybody can be traded. So in a sense you are also taking advantage of the fact that Pedey opened his mouth at the wrong time and stuck his foot in it. Again I don't give a s*** what he said later....you cannot contest that the team never once lined up behind V and that early comment by Pedey was likely the beginning of the snowball rolling downhill as far as V having any management control over this team. It has been run by the players and run into the ground. I don't give a s*** about what either guy V or Pedey has said since then. If I moved Pedey I would still leave the impression in the minds of the players that I did not like what Pedey said and if I hear any more ******** out of any one of them, I might just move them also. These players will at a moments notice harp away right in the middle of the season in an effort to feather their own nest regardless of what it does to the team and Pedey lines up behind the player or players when that happens. So I have no problem using the idea of trading Pedey as a means of sending a message to the rest of these *******s. I have no forgiveness left for any of them....I have no empathy left for any of them and if I was in management I would do everything in my power including use them individually or as a group in whatever manner I see fit as a means of improving this team. It is a bad team WITH Pedey. He gives me the opportunity to improve my pitching and send a message.

I repeat, you have to change the culture of this team. That much should be obvious by now. Lackey is not going anywhere and Beckett is not enough. I think Pedey would actually be a pretty attractive player out on the trade market because his salary is really quite manageable. That is the key. The team actually does get value out of a player that is an established star. I just don't care about the individual numbers anymore when you stack them up against the mess that is the Boston Red Sox. People throw in the towel on any manager regaining some control of this team and frankly you cannot change out the whole team in order to regain control but you cannot throw in the towel on regaining control either. Come back with that many of the same players that are the accepted leaders of this team and you are just institutionalizing failure and a team controlled by the players....doomed! However, if you get rid of a few of the guys that are associated with various aspects of this mess and draw the others in line....then you might have something. Get Beckett out of here...who gives a s*** what we get for him. Move Pedey and try to put together a deal around Pedey that actually does get you something back. Give Ortiz his deal but gain concessions from Ortiz as part of the process and deal with Lackey at a point in time when you have some leverage over him...when he can play again. Denying him playing time when he can play again is that point in time. Since he likely to be pure s*** on a stick....who cares if we sit him.....that is the problem...anybody in an MLB uniform pitching as a 3,4 or 5 can pitch as well as these guys can pitch. You have to go after this at the core of the team. Anything else is playing around at the edges and you will doom yourself to another season of wondering why these guys don't play to their career stats and just start that whole process of frustration all over again. People kept pushing this career numbers crap all the way up to where we are today....below 500 as a team and likely to be below 500 as a team when the season ends. This is a bad team and you cannot lay that at the foot of Mike Aviles. He is footnote. I want a team that just plays, smiles and keeps its f***ing mouth shut. I don't care what V said as he turned into a lap dog to get through the season and I don't care what Pedey said to try to deflect criticism from what ultimately and finally turned out to be a comment that was roundly accepted as an early turning point in the season. Nothing looked like a coordinated "managed" effort at any time in this season. Say what want about V. He is at least enough of a manager to have made that effort if he had a team that would follow him even one step of the way. As for Pedey and his value. Go ahead and wait for him to have another season like this one and then tell me what his trade value is. When does the way Pedey plays finally catch up to him. This is exactly how the Sox get into these never ending screwed up situations with the player sitting there completely valueless. Oh wait I forgot...he HAS to come back to his career numbers. Frankly I don't care if he does. Let some other team take that risk. If they cannot eke value in return out of a multiplayer deal with Pedey at its core I would be very surprised. If they tried and could not then I likely would not pull the trigger. But I would make every effort to cobble together said deal. At the end of the day they need pitching and using a player like Pedey at the core of a trade is likely the only way they are going to get it. They cannot come back with a rotation of Lester, Lackey, Buch, Felix, Frank and Cook. That bunch will need a 1 to neutralize Lackey among other things because Lackey will not be tradable. Lester will surely benefit from having a true 1 for the rotation as well. I do think they end up keeping Lester because they will have to get a new pitching coach anyway and I would be shocked if they did not make the recovery of Lester a priority for whoever comes in here. Regardless of what else they do, they will end up in yet another season of starters making early exits and the pen tapping out of the season when there is still season left to play if they go into next season with the guys identified above.

Beckett is not solid now. The Sox don't need to find a 1 or a 2 specifically to have a direct performance replacement for Beckett. Guys pitching as well as Beckett is pitching are all over the league. So getting somebody to pitch as well as Beckett is pitching should not be much of a challenge. People want to move Lackey but everybody acknowledges that nobody will touch Lackey with a ten foot pole. So like it or not he is here. Lester is the question mark. Since the Sox will need a new pitching coach for next year, I would hold out hope that a pitching coach can be brought in here that has a plan for helping Lester make a return to at least some semblance of his former self as opposed to where he is now. If however that is not going to work out, then getting somebody in here to pitch as good as Lester is pitching now should not be any problem cause Lester is pitching like s***. Find a 4 or a 5 someplace and insert him into the rotation....walla....Lester at half the money. I am tongue in cheek to some extent here but I would not be grinding my teeth that hard about finding a guy that can be a direct replacement for Beckett and even one for Lester if need be because they are pitching like your run of the mill, stinko ML pitcher. One reason for moving Pedey is that he is a relative salary bargain and he could be the center piece of a multiplayer combination that would bring back a high level pitcher, one that might be a 1 here since there is nobody in that role currently. The Sox 2013 infield would be made up of guys that are already in the Sox system. So they would not need to bring in another 2nd baseman if they moved Pedey. Look, there is just no sense in talking about this team in terms of nibbling at the edges of issues. They just lost without even looking competitive to the Guardians....the 1-11 Guardians of the last 12 games. They struck out something like 12 times against the worst pitching staff in baseball...they drew 1 walk from the team that walks more batters than anybody in baseball. They were 1 for 11 with runners on. If anything they are lucky that Youk is gone and lucky that making Pedey the center piece of a mulitiplayer trade could well be enough to send the right message to the rest of the players on this team, changing both the culture of the team and provide a catalyst to change the offensive characteristics of the team. It might even be enough to allow a manager to determine what he would like the offensive characteristics to be. Would be nice to have an offense that we could actually identify as something more than accidental offense for a change. This is a bad baseball team. It no longer matters what we think of Pedey or Ells or this guy or that guy as individuals....this is a bad baseball team. They must change the profile of this team. I think they should consider themselves lucky that moving Beckett out of here and moving Pedey out of here, moving the empty uniforms out of here and moving in guys already in the Sox system, might be the only changes they can realistically make this year and may in fact be enough especially if we get a true top of the rotation guy in here as well. They may not be able to solve the starting pitching issues in one off season. They are deep and broad. So, it might not happen. However they have to move in the right direction and away from where they are now. From a player perspective, that means they have to deal with the players that are at the core of the team, both in the rotation and in the corp of everyday players. They either have to move them or bring them in line. In fact, I believe they have to do both. If this management cuts Lackey any slack at all, they will need to have their heads examined. He has to be here to rehab...when he does finally pitch next year....either get him in line or sit his ass down. He wants to be a perennial *******, there is not much they can do with him while in rehab but once he is back to pitching again, deny him the mound if he will not stop the ********. What the hell does it matter...he will very likely pitch like s*** anyway. You want to pitch John Lackey...smarten up. David Ortiz, you want your two year deal....smarten up...cut the ********. You can have your two year deal but in trade, I want a real team player, not somebody that talks about being a team player. Bring Lackey in line. Bring Ortiz in line. Get rid of Beckett and Pedey and the empty uniforms and they may well have done enough to actually change the direction of this death spiral the Sox are on.

I really think the Sox are going to have to have the courage to make bold moves. There is simply to much broken here. While the starting pitching is the biggest problem, there is no solution in any of these guys in the rotation this year with the exception of Buch. Felix is not going to work his way up to 1,2 or 3 and neither is Frank. I expect Lackey to be as close to s*** as possible. Starting the season with that rotation as suggested is a fail before they ever play the first game in my opinion. Now having not had the courage to do it this year, Sox Management may be willing to admit that 2013 will be a bridge year. Baring that, they will need something like what the Celtics did when they were unable to get Kevin Durant. They pulled off the KG, Ray Allan deal and ended up with a Championship out of that effort. The Sox need that sort of makeover only in MLB terms instead of NBA terms. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody will take Lackey iortiz although I think Beckett can be moved as long as the Sox are willing to eat salary. I might even look to change over the whole makeup of the team. Trade Pedey and put Ciriaco at 2nd with Iggy at SS and Aviles the utility infielder. Getting rid of Punto should be obvious. Getting rid of Pedey without bringing in a replacement would be gambling that Iggy hits well enough as the everyday SS but under the circumstances, that gamble may be a better gamble than betting that guys like Pedey will ever be what he once was for this team. I think it is at least an even bet that Pedey has f***ed himself royally as far as being a Red Sox for a career is concerned. He has unfortunately splattered himself with the same mud that stains so many of the vets on this team. Maybe Pedey as part of a multi player deal becomes a deal that gets you a real starting pitcher. I give Ortiz a two year deal at this point and get it done. However I would sit Ortiz down and tell him that the trade off for a two year deal is that he shuts the f*** up about embarrassed and insulted etc etc. Shut up and play. You want to strut around Mr "this is my clubhouse". Then make it a clubhouse you should be proud of, not this mess. Shut up, play and actually walk the walk of a leader instead of just talking the talk. Move Beckett. Move Lester if possible. The only way I keep Lester is if I make a move to a pitching coach that has a specific plan that I believe will work to bring Lester back. If not, move Lester. We are stuck with Lackey as nobody will take him until he pitches. So we would start the season with Buch, Lackey, Felix. Frank and probably Lester and Cook. Pen guys are Aceves, Miller, Atch, Bailey, Breslow, and either Bard or Tazawa and whoever the hell else they toss in there. If I keep Pedey and put Ciriaco at SS with Aviles the utility guy, I would trade Ells. Get him outta' here while we can. The more I see of him, the more I am beginning to feel like he will never have a season like 2011 again, nor anything even close to it and the Sox simply have no room for him and Crawford on the same roster. The Sox also have no way out of the Crawford contract. Trade Ells. Bring somebody in here to play Center for a year or get by with some combination of OF including Kalish covering CF until Bradley gets here in 2014. Trading Pedey probably makes more sense. I really am beginning to think Pedey has to go. I am concerned with Pedey aging early because of the way he plays and I think that combined with the mess he made for himself this year is enough to say done and dusted. We should be able to get something done in a trade that involves Pedey. So if I had a choice between the two possible "bold" moves I would trade Pedey instead of trading Ells. But I would do one or the other. If I keep Ells I just let him play out his contract, make him an offer of an extension to see if you can pry Ells away from what his agent wants him to do but I think it more likely that Ells leaves and Bradley becomes your CF in 2014. I should point out that I do not think getting Aviles was a bad move. Getting him and making him your everyday SS was the bad move. Make Aviles your utility infielder and get rid of Punto. I keep AGons as I think we will conclude that AGons was simply yet another player that f***ed himself royally trying to play to that stupid Fenway LF wall. I am disappointed that it took AGons so long to work back from that but I really think that is what happened to Agons 2012. I keep Agons, Ross, Crawford, Ciriaco, WMB, Lavs with Salty the backup. I keep Kalish here next year although you have no idea how much I wish we had Reddick. Keep Nava as a back up. I get rid of Shop, Punto, Pedey or Ells (preferably Pedey) and Sweeney. I get rid of Beckett and possibly Lester. I would dearly love to get rid of Lackey but nobody will take him.

I agree that Ross should not be hitting against tough RH pitchers either. However now the Sox pitching problems have gone from starters to pen. The pen is toast. If BC wants to make a discussion about Kalish vs Pods relevant he needs to get V some pen help. Without that, Kalish vs Pods is simply not even a relevant discussion.

I agree with that...Kalish was clearly not ready to come up earlier this year and he is not ready now. However at this point in the season would you rather see Kalish gaining more experience up here or Pods, a vet going nowhere taking up space on the roster that one of the kids should have? Who cares what Pods does this year. If the trade was Pods for Shop I am fine with that. I am just not fine with Pods taking Kalish's spot on the ML roster because Kalish gaining experience has more value to me than anything Pods is going to do in 50 games. Earlier in the year when there was still a chance, I was totally fine with sending Kalish back down. However now is the time to bring the kids up. Nothing Pods does is going to rescue this season. The Sox may go on a 10 win run but it won't be because of Pods.

I guess that trade makes sense if only to move Shop. But if Shop is not the deal then what do they need another outfielder for at this point?

That is a good point wyo.....will Pedey just become one more guy that they hang onto to long....keeping down guys that should be coming up. I would like to think Pedey has enough in the tank to continue here. I would like to think he has the good sense to never put himself and his team in the position he put them in at the start of this season (i.e. keep his big mouth shut). The simple truth is that no "team" run by players is going anywhere EVER. Management put this knuckle-headed team together but the vets could have had enough sense to recognize that they were just pouring gasoline on an the tinder and striking the match. They could have just found a way to deal with V. But No, not on a team full of guys that only care about themselves. Youk was not going to let a comment like the one V made go by without registering his displeasure because he thought the comment might directly bear on his value in the FA market. It is as simple as that. Pedey for his part completely sympathized with Youk. Leave it to a Sox vet to always side with a guy trying to maintain his FA value even if it means taking the legs out from under the manager and the team as a whole as a result. They are all individually more important than the team which is of course the same thing as saying that each individual is more important than winning. That along with 700's "must score more than 5 to win" credo are the messages of the 2012 season.

Bell I will be honest with you....I don't think that was a vote of confidence for V...think about it...is that in line with how that management group thinks? I think that was a vote of confidence for LL...he was the guy that went with V and I think JH wanted to throw some support LL's way just in case anybody thought they might smarten up and really start to address some of these issues where they live! I never thought V was the right guy for this job and still don't think so...I am just growing sick and tired of seeing this organization fail and throw people under the bus that don't really deserve to be there in order to cover up their failures.....I am just sick to death of it. So much so that I just am not willing to see it happen to one more guy when there are so many jerks in management and among the players that need to be slapped upside the head.

Your right E1, it was a run-on. Hit the Post button to fast for my own good. Wanted to get that out before folks left the thread.

Bogars would take the job but in truth at least from my perspective, V does not deserve a mid-season firing. He may not deserve a firing at all when you consider what alternatives might be available even after this season ends. I never thought I would be sitting here, more or less defending V. However this team, this FO and this upper management has literally not left me a choice. I cannot in good conscience bang on V when so much of what is around him has been a fail on a historic level.

Before I forget and if I just don't get an opportunity to at some later date, I want to commend the guys like Elk and 700 and a few others who have been pretty much on point with regard to where this team was and where it was going for not gloating or making life more miserable for the more optimistic board members and I also want to commend the guys that have been steadfast in supporting a more optimistic view that have stayed with the board while the team has crumbled before their eyes. I am glad they stayed and I wish more from the optimist crowd had stayed. Clearly the board has been mature enough not to degenerate into ugliness over the dif between the optimists and realists (I guess, for lack of a better term) and I would have preferred more people hang around because we all learn more from each other the more of us there are.

I suspect that they let Salty hit there because regardless of how much speed they have...virtually all of it wasted on this team with the exception of using it to get home from 2nd or go from 1st to 3rd, about all they can do is get a guy or two on and hit a dinger...if you look at how many of their runs of late are coming by that route, that is basically all they have for an offense. We had one game against the Rangers where they actually looked like there was an offensive plan at work and every other game has looked like this. Frankly that one game against the Rangers was clearly an anomaly....the right guys happened to come up at the right time and they got to look like an offense. All to often it is offense by accident....and a consequence of accumulating enough hits and walks in a row to score some runs....all of it basically a sequence of disconnected but none the less positive offensive events that results in a run or two. So beyond making monster improvements to the starting pitching, they are going to have to make many changes to the everyday ballplayers in order to have an actual team offensive concept. Once you get into the real important part of the season if all you can do is mash the ball, well you will be prevented from doing that by the better pitchers in this league. While they are at it, they might actually end up with better defense as well. They can s***-can Punto as soon as possible and make Aviles the back up...they need three catchers like they need a hole in the head and it would be helpful to have somebody besides Kalish that can throw the ball toward home without blooping the f***ing thing over the cutoff man. What a sorry assed excuse for a baseball team. The only thing more embarrassing than watching them play now would be watching them play in a post season series...now that would be "laughable".

We are playing a team that has lost 11 of its last 12.....lost 11 in a row in fact. Do we look like we are even competing with this team....no...this game has the same air of inevitability about it that the last 20 games or so have had...just waiting to get to the ninth inning to see what score we lost by this time.

Well when you see them like this...cry is more like it....$180M budget and V is forced to keep struggling starters in the game because the pen is tapped out. I will grant that the pen is tapped out because our starting pitching sucks. However what is that....news to BC? It has sucked all season. This day was bound to come sooner or later and in fact it came last year as well. What the f*** do they have to see in that FO to at least respond to what the hell is going on in games, on the field. OK so they did nothing at the deadline that says they were willing to bias their planning toward improving the team's prospects after this year. Well that sucked and I did not like it...not many of us did. However I just don't know which is worse anymore...nothing done at the deadline or nothing done to content with a situation that was just sitting there waiting to come apart. If you are going to acknowledge that the starting pitching sucks and even LL today was willing to admit that the starting pitching is the biggest problem the team has, what do you think eventually happens to the bullpen? What..... they are just going to continue to be able to come in game after game after game and pitch from about the 5th inning on without finally succumbing. They are not only not going to make the post season, they are going to crash and burn AGAIN this year. The only difference is that they are not going to crash and burn from 1st place. They are going to plummet into the basement from their current 5th. Now they no longer have a pen to support their sucky starters. What the hell are we going to be left with? A few 12-8 wins to run out the season.

I know V is strapped for bullpen help right now and once more I am stuck really unable to discredit V for situations that really do cost this team games. Yea I tend to hate his lineup "hunches" because they usually involve sitting a kid that is playing really well and reinserting one of the vets that has basically been underperforming most of the year. I guess I really have to hang this one on BC....the FO f***s it up again. V appears to be forced to leave the starter in hoping against hope that they can hang onto a lead when really in many cases the starter has been struggling all game long and needs to come out. But V has nobody to go to....not really. So he is stuck.....just completely stuck. Here we have Felix...with a lead...can't hold it and now we are down 4-3. this cluster f*** of a 7th inning did not help any. But in truth do I really think the Guardians are done at 4 runs....I doubt it.

But long before BC had the job the Sox have been plagued with keep them forever disease. The safest thing you can have happen to you is get a deal to come to the Red Sox, especially a FA deal. First off you are guaranteed to be overpaid which will make it tough to you move you later regardless of anything else and second, the team will keep you till you are in a wheelchair figuring that is the best way for the to justify having overpaid you in the first place.

Beckett should be gone but he has the same problem Lackey has at this point. Who would take either one with one still on the shelf in rehab and considered clubhouse poison and the other one pitching like s*** and considered clubhouse poison. When two guys have been as vocally and visually f***ed up as these two guys have been, don't think being clubhouse poison gets discounted as much as you might hope. If they are performing up to snuff being clubhouse poison gets discounted. If you are performing like s*** or not at all, being clubhouse poison becomes a factor.

I have been of the opinion that Lester was fixable but Beckett not but I can see someone also thinking that Lester needs to go also. What is frustrating about all three (meaning Beckett, Lester, Lackey) is that there are overarching issues that make it hard to believe they have a place on this team going forward. Do we really think that a guy that deflects so much attention away from himself and toward his teammates and coaches, umpires and anything else under the moon and the stars but himself can possibly focus enough attention on the real issues that he needs to resolve in order to perform optimally? Unfortunately, that question is appropriate in all three cases and I would say the answer is unequivocally, no. I was willing to cut Lester some slack all the way up until this last start where once again he just could not contain himself. I often ask folks here to watch baseball games and look at teams outside of Sox baseball games and then ask themselves if anything like the nonsense that surrounds and engulfs this team is remotely apparent to anything like the degree that it is here (I am not referring to substance abuse or domestic violence issues but pure baseball nonsense)....then go and determine which players are generating the bulk of this nonsense and low and behold you generally will find that they are performing farthest from your expectations. Get them outta' here...sooner rather than later.

For me it was the reality that the Sox would not move Beckett when they had the chance and the further recognition that they were pitching weak going into the 2012 season. If I could have convinced myself that moving Beckett was something they would actually consider when they should have I would have considered it more of something they should do. I really have a difficult time with the so called "experts" insisting that Sox nation would not tolerate the FO getting rid of its so called "stars" at a more optimal time than when their arms have fallen off for a pitcher and when they can no longer see well enough to tell ball from strike for a hitter. It irritates me no end that these experts in sort of a left handed manner blame the fans for the FO inability to move guys insisting on keeping them till past the bitter end. We want to see good baseball...winning baseball and are just as happy if not more so when that winning baseball comes from guys coming up from the system. Claiming that the FO can't move on these bums because we, the fans would be incensed really pisses me off.

So many Sox players...especially pitchers have turned out to be head cases: Lackey, Mr. treats his teammates and coaches like s***, apologizes the next day and does it again! Appears to be the very definition of misery loves company as well Beckett, Mr. finding a new place for baseball in his list of priorities....somewhere a few rungs down from his golf game Padilla, known head case goes out there and proves it every time he faces the Yankees at least Lester, basically pitches decent to mediocre but then allows a few bad calls from the ump to turn mediocre into downright terrible...much like Lackey, seems to understand this is a big problem but is helpless to do anything about it...staggering Bard, the very mention of his name should be enough Aceves, has gone from having a few idiosyncrasies on the mound to having some real problems it appears with coaches, teammates, umps, you name it What is the common link between them all....when you have little perspective on what you are doing as it relates to the team you play for you begin to indulge you oddities. Why not...everybody else is doing it. The pitchers are easily the center piece of the least likable Red Sox team I have ever laid eyes on.

Nice one wyo.....has a nice ring to it. Dicekettackey traded today for a bag a bolts and a mangy flea bitten dog. Would surely be nice to get Dicekettackey off our team as he sounds like the guy of guy that would give up back to back three run homers by successive hitters....a damn hard thing to do but right up Dicekettackey's alley.:D

If anything the Rangers helped Beckett out in this game as they could have knocked him out early given all he rotten pitches he was tossing up there this game. The Rangers and about three or four well placed curve balls saved Beckett's ass today. But even with that, look at how many runs he eventually gave up. I have said for awhile that he was done here in Boston....he may be well on the way to done for a career. He has had two years now of trying to make this transition away from mainly being a power pitcher and it is simply not working out. He does know how to pitch and he does work around his various maladies one game to the next but he simply has so many maladies and any or all of them may crop up on any given start. The velo on his FB is what it is now. That is not a malady but it is what forces him to exhibit more control and location that he ever has in his career and that is what fails him. It eludes him more often than not on that 91 mph FB and the cutter and sometimes on the change. Oddly enough much like today he tends to have more success with the curve than you would expect him to have. After two years of watching him try to do this and now hearing him talk about where he puts baseball in the overall scheme of things....he may just be done.