Dipre

Hey, i took my lumps while he was adjusting. Payback time.

Not a player you can compare you can compare to Josh Beckett. Also, how can his bad year be an outlier if he had multiple bad years in an inferior league? That's a massive contradiction. Also, your "opinion of Theo as a ML talen evaluator" is interesting, given as how you don't value players such as Drew, and had a pre-conceived notion about Beltre before he started playing. If the team keeps winning and making the playoffs as it has, said opinion has little objective value.

Arroyo had one really good year as a starter, which was 2004, it's what we call an "outlier". Against the rest of his career, his AL numbers are a much smaller sample size supported by one good year. In 2005, his peripherals regressed, but he maintained his ERA in a respectable range, but the warning flags were the reason they dealt him away. If you think about, the fact that he had that horrible two-year stretch in a vastly inferior division (it is an inferior division) doesn't support your argument, but mine. He had back to back 9.9 H/9 years in the NL Central and maintained an ERA under 5.00, he's a miracle worker if he pulls that off in the AL East.

Whoever says we didn't get the short end of the stick in that trade is incorrect. But it wasn't a "fleecing" of massive proportions. Putting his career in the proper perspective (league difference, 2007 and 2008 seasons) would allow you to do that. And trying to compare Beckett to Arroyo is jaw-dropping. Wasn't hyperbole, since you went to the trouble of using ERA+ (which doesn't account for league difference) to sustain the point.

It is absolutely hilarious how, instead of the approach a700 takes (stats and insight) you keep running your mouth and baiting. Have you noticed how you reflect your ability to piss people off on me? Unless you're going to add something to your argument, you may as well not say anything. Look at your prior post. Had you taken the time to read a700's post, you would have gotten where the joke came from, how can you call me wrong and support the other argument, if you aren't even reading what's being said. What's funny is you don't deny the fact the fact that the NL is a weaker league and helps mask pitcher's weaknesses because you can't. Prove me wrong. Besides, not only have you misinterpreted the argument, put words in other people's mouths, said stuff without putting it into context because you don't read before you post, and acted with a modicum of douchebaggery, but you're also playing the victim, because no one was fighting until you came along. The laughter makes my side hurt. Further info from credible, unbiased sources: http://sabermetricresearch.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-much-better-is-al-than-nl.html Hmmm......Bill James and Alan Schwarz......i believe them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/14/sports/baseball/14score.html This article is a good read on the differences between pitchers changing from the NL to the AL and vice-versa: And Arroyo is specifically mentioned there. More literature: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?id=2521701 Enough to back up the point IMO. Pitchers coming from the NL to the AL usually struggle, while the opposite is also true.

I said it was a bad trade, and absolutely no one has denied it. The reason why this has turned into an examination of Arroyo's career is because of the over-valuing of his skills to prove a point that doesn't exist. Arroyo is what he is. Not near Josh Beckett, not a 4.50 ERA, 200 IP pitcher in the AL. It was a hypothetical scenario. I think it was clear enough when reading that part of the post. As to the "facts" about him sucking in the AL (which was never the basis of the argument, but rather the fact that he'd be an average pitcher, and i have stated so numerous times), his 2007 and 2008 peripherals (which you are conveniently ignoring) specifically that 1.4 WHIP, and 4.57 and 4.50 ERA moved from the NL Central to the AL East suggest, with let's say, a modest downgrade in performance, an ERA nearing five, and with said ERA nearing five, less turns through the rotation and less IP. It is what it is. You can try to downgrade the NL to AL argument all you want, but like Jacko, you were comfortable using it when critizing the Penny and Smoltz signings. Can't have it both ways.

Just re-read this thread. Awesome awesome thread.

Incorrect. I jumped into the argument when i saw someone had the gall to compare Bronson Arroyo to Josh Beckett. The key to the argument was the comparison between this trade and Doiji's proposed Napoli for V-Mart trade because this FO is "That kind of FO, the one that traded Arroyo for Pena" hindsight is 20-20, and Arroyo. while not a suckbag, has benefitted from playing in the NL, and his numbers in the AL wouldn't be as good as they were in the NL. Reliability doesn't mean effectiveness. You know who's reliable? Javier Vasquez. What has he done in the AL besides one good year? Just like Arroyo. He would have helped this team. Specially in 2006, it was a bad trade, but comparing Arroyo to Beckett and using his NL numbers which would have clearly not been as good in the AL is ridiculous. What's funny is that if we'd kept Arroyo and he got his ass kicked 2007 and 2008 (as a 1,4 WHIP would indicate) if information leaked that we could have had WMP for Arroyo, those criticizing the move would now be all for it: "Man, this FO sucks, this Arroyo guy is horrible". Hindsight is 20/20. Oh, and i don't know about you, but i wouldn't want any pitcher who loses 20 games in my rotation, that's Mike Maroth territory of suck right there.

If you look back at the thread, no one has said we didn't get the short end of the stick in the trade, because WMPs probably in some disco drinking and dancing as we speak, but comparing Arroyo to Beckett in order to create the illusion that they are similar, and that the trade was such a massive mistake because we could have a guy similar to Beckett in Arroyo is stupid.

Yup, ERA+ does that for us, which is the point Rhet wanted to make in the first place. What really needs to be done is account for the differences in league offense and pitching between AL East and NL Central. I shall get on it.

a700 knows what he's talking about and makes significant contributions to baseball conversations, which is why his opinion is always well-received and the answers he receives well-thought out and backed up by stats.

Part of me wants to Laugh its ass off at the prospect of trading V-Mart for Mike Napoli, but it can't, because it is not phisycally (literally?) possible.

My ESPN fantasy team wants to make love to Victor Martinez.

I actually meant 07-08, when he had WHIP's of 1.40 in back-to-back seasons. To say "A 1.30 WHIP in the AL East is pretty f***ing good" then watch the guy churn out two straight seasons of 1.40 WHIP in the vastly inferior NL and assume he could have had 4.50 ERA, 200 IP seasons in the AL East is retarded. Please keep digging (and making my arguments for me) i love watching you flail.

Lol@ this thread.