rician blast

good points. I flipped back and forth between the games last night, and even though the Yankees blew the big lead, I felt like a comparison of the two teams right now shows dramatic differences. Sox had plenty of chances to put away the Royals last night...bases loaded with less than 2 outs two, maybe three times? Meanwhile, Rivera was shaky but closed the door on the CHiSox and the Yankees didn't quit after being up 4-0...they even ran a little when it was 5-0 or 6-0. Just kinda leaves you with a bad feeling that the Sox are headed in the opposite direction...hope I'm wrong and they get hot, though.

Hey Sweet: Are you always this stupid or are you just making a special effort today? Did you even READ my post? Did I say moneyball was a person? How the hell did you conjure up that out of my post? Let me explain it to you, although after your misguided insults you don't deserve an explanation: You said to Crunchy "Before you criticize something, please understand the thing you are going to criticize. " And I replied that "Before you criticize SOMEONE", you essentially should think of whom your criticizing and why, before attacking them personally. I even bolded the SOMEONE to draw a distinction between your post and mine and ensure that someone with limited intelligence wouldn't read it as if I was quoting you. Yet you still managed to f*** it up. It's just absolutely mind-boggling that you'd go on the attack like that, using my post as the basis, yet clearly not understanding a thing you read. Let me summarize my position here for you: you attacked Mr. Crunchy regarding his understanding of moneyball, a topic I know he is familiar with, one that he has expressed his opinions on clearly in the past...and I pointed out that before you criticize him, make sure you know his position and maybe take into account his posting history. Yet you twist my comments into something they are not...that's despicable, cowardly and childish and I have no use for you or your ilk....I've seen your kind before (although I had to pay an admission). And if you are even thinking of replying, save your breath...You'll need it to blow up your date.

Before you criticize SOMEONE you might want to give some thought to his previous positions on the same or similar topics, the manner in which he's supported those positions and his posting history in general. Drunken format? Thoughtless post? Seems to me your words best describe your own post.

good post and many valid points. i think we're of differing opinions regarding whether the Sox should have been going for it this year or building for another...my thought is that you don't make a trade of one of your more useful pitchers that early in the year...not when the return is a POTENTIALLY good OF. Part of my thought process stems from the fact that Bronson was relatively cheap in terms of starting pitchers salaries...and he was young...and he demonstrated some loyalty to the club with his most recent signing...and he didn't bash the Sox on the way out. The following part of your post I have to disagree with: Detroit a few years back was nowhere close to where the Sox were at the start of 2006. If the Sox were that lame, that obviously out of the running before the season started, I don't think there'd be a lot of Sox fans screaming to get rid of the young guns in exchange for immediate success. Why? Because I think Sox fans know when you are that far from being competetive you don't add a few studs and think that'll carry you to success. I really believe that knowledgable fans, in general, understand that you make those moves when you are close, not when you are struggling. In times of rebuilding you hang on to young talent to develop your core...then when the time is right the club is honed through FA, trades, etc. Of course the Sox are what they are now and IMO they are ill-equipped to win a playoff round...I wonder, though, down the line (2007,2008) how much value Wily Mo will be adding in comparison to the inings eater the Red Sox had in Arroyo. Seems whether I look at the trade long-range or short I don't like it.

So you'd rather see Pena in right, Trot on the bench and have Wells and Johnson manning the end of the rotation...as opposed to Arroyo, whom you pretty much know what you're gonna get with? I've said it before...even if Wily Mo hits .285 with 30 HRs and 100 RBIs next year, I still classify the trade as lousy because THIS year ya hosed the fkn pitching staff and PITCHING is what wins titles.

You stated that under a cap environment the large market teams would still dominate...and I drew the important distinction that not all large market teams are on a level playing field....and that the Yanks advantage is much greater over all of the other so-called "large market teams"...the apples to oranges comparison was performed by you...not I. Your focus on meat is an entirely different, and slightly scary, issue. As for the numbers, they come from the USA Today Salaries Database and while I was working off memory I was incredibly close...double checking, here is what they report for the top 5 (this was prepared in early 2006, so some changes would probably have taken place, but the numbers should be a damn good baseline): Yankees $194.663m (plus '06 in-season moves which have them topping $200m) Red Sox $120.099m Angels $103.472m White Sox $102.751m Mets $101.085m so if the numbers are off nominally...and we agree that these are pretty damn accurate...let's check the math, which you say is flawed: The Yankees advantage over the Sox is approx....... $80m The Sox advantage over the next three teams is approx..... $20m Isn't $80m 4 TIMES MORE than $20M, as I stated?

the fact that someone can say NOW that they'd still make that trade befuddles, bemuses and bewilders me. I thought pitching wins championships...not 4th OFs.

Jackson comes over the blue line, dekes the 'D'...he shoots...he scores... good post. While no one will mistake Arroyo for Bob Gibson, he would have been a huge piece of the Sox staff this year and the fact that he was moved can not be overlooked. Lets also not forget that he toook the hometown discount and got fkd anyway, which other players may not forget. You know....come to think of it...at his age and salary and with his ability to eat innings he was EXACTLY the type of pitcher you'd think the Sox would want at the end of their rotation or in the pen come playoff time. Seems to me he was a reasonably high-VALUE player, which I think is part of the Theo/Lucchino philosophy...which makes me wonder was there something else that provided the impetus to this seemingly foolish trade?

Let's just be sure its understood that under the current system the Yankees have a much greater advantage than any other team...and not characterize this as though the Sox and Yanks and other large market teams are on an equal playing field. The Yankees advantage over the second highest salaried team is approx 4 times that of the Sox over the next three teams: Yankees $200m+ Sox $120m WHite Sox $103m Mets $101m Dodgers $100m

I agree that trade helped the Phillies...as this type of trade has helped the Marlins and countless other teams in the past. My point was that with NO LIMIT and ONE TEAM willing and able to spend $200M+ per year, that team will have a huge advantage in acquiring players, particularly in free agency and in the case of trading deadline trades, over all other teams. It makes sense for the dumping team...and apparently it doesn't phase the Yanks...but other teams do not have that luxury. Mind you I am not complaining nor am I crying poor mouth for the Sox. I suppose you could say I'm reminding everyone not to get too emotionally hung up on their team's effort in trying to win a title, as the odds are not in their favor but in the favor of the Yanks. That's just just the way it is...somethings will never change.

I'm not sure how a cap would play out in MLB, but its worked in football, that's for sure. The current system allows deals like the Phillies recent salary dump...Abreu to the Yanks for virtually nothing in return, except getting them out from under that contract...despite a situation where no other team was able or willing to strap themselves with the contract. In other words, the Yankees resources allow them to make moves that other teams can't or won't because of their financial constraints.

I just got back from a week in Va Beach. Many Yankee hats and shirts all seemingly worn by fat Italian guys with loud voices and rude children. In some ways it felt like Brooklyn. Then I see several ladies wearing pink Sox hats or guys with regular Sox hats where the brim is totally unaltered since purchase, not worn the way a real fan would wear it...and certainly not worn the way someone who played ball would where it. And I now wonder...of the two types of fans...which is worse?

seems muff diving into Susan Waldman's crusty, contaminated crevice has f***ed Kay up more than one might think.

Personally I disagree. Established starting pitching at the age and salary of Arroyo can't be traded for offensive potential. Down the line maybe....maybe....the trade will look ok. But when will that be? 2007? 2008? We had an innings eater and true competitor in Arroyo but he was traded for a 4th OF? That's a good MLB trade, where we all know that pitching is key?

Damn, this post is an indictment of the education system where this poster grew up.

very good points...i feel much the same way but I'm giving the FO the benefit of the doubt...and its not easy to do this go around. if its true that names like Oswalt could have been had (depends on for what) my tolerance for this youth movement, which I've been a proponent of, could be diminishing.

abso-fkn-lutely correct Seano. once again I gotta believe that the FO did what they deemed best for the long-term health od the organization...hey they are in the know not us, right? will say its a little frustrating that, IMO, the most significant move they made relative to pitching (other than Beckett) is getting rid of Arroyo for a 4th or 5th OF. Sure they need Wily Mo now but having Arroyo as a #3 or #4 would have made me a little more comfortable with the Sox chances down the stretch.

what the Braves get or don't get in this proposed deal is not of consequence to Sox fans as they and the Yankees are in different situations. What the Yankees get IS of consequence to the Sox....and if they land Smoltz, they've essentially got a NEW #1 pitcher (based on his "money game" prowess) going into the dog days and likely the playoffs. That is no small detail. Imagine the Yanks landing one of the best big game pitchers of his era? We're not talking Clemens here, folks, we're talking about a clutch performer.

First they gotta make the playoffs, but lets assume the Sox do. Do you really believe no one can beat the Sox in the playoffs? What if the Twins got in and you face Santana, Liriano and Radke? Or what if Chicago gets hot again? Or how about if they faced Detroit and their pitching staff? Anything can happen come playoff time and if you bump up against a hot team...particularly hot pitching...your season can be over quickly. You're way to confident.

You can never, ever count on the Yankees having "a limit". With their resources and thirst for championships, if they get an opportunity to grab Smoltz, Carl Pavano's status won't enter into the decision making at all. The Yankees find a way. And that scares me.

condemn the Sox? no. Disagree with the trade? yes because I'll remember that in 2006 the Red Sox were involved in a tight divisional race and could have used the innings-eating Arroyo instead of a backup outfielder. I remember when the Sox chose not to retain Roger Clemens. I was in total agreement, as he had just come off a mediocre stint despite be the highest paid pitcher in baseball (subject to check). When he won several more Cy Youngs I didn't turn around and say they should have resigned him. You make deals based on what you know at the time...including potential of those you acquire...but I maintain that typically you do not move succesful starting pitching for a 5th OF who might learn to hit a curve ball some day. Especially not when you are already competetive...if you are out of a race, things are different...but in this case I don't agree at all with the Arroyo trade.

I like your post...all of it...but I want to focus on this last part. For ME, personally, the book is not open and never will be open again on the Arroyo trade. If Wily Mo hits .290., 30 jacks, 100 rbis in 2008, it'll not erase the basic idea in my mind that you don't trade decent starting pitching for anything other than a proven commidity. It's like making the first or last out of an inning at third base or throwing behind a runner and letting him advance. Ya just don't do it. I'm not a see, I told you so, it all worked out in the end kind of guy. This trade was just plain dumb, IMO, and I still don't blame just Theo...Larry is right there beside him.

Yesterday on ESPN they were doing this thing on the ALL-TIME MLB team. Some Highlights: Wille Mays CF Joe Morgan 2b Bench C Mike Schmidt 3B ARod SS guess who they had as their pitcher? You guessed it...Roger Clemens! Blister boy himself. Once I saw that I just laughed...this guy has come up short in big situations as often as any pitcher I can ever remember...he is the anti-John Smoltz when it comes to big game pitching. Hansen for Clemens? fuuuuuuuk no.

I don't see anything he's said as whining. I see him trying way to hard to convince everyone that his view is that its the fans right to boo, that he's working hard and that he'll get through it. And I maintain that it is a real possibility that he DOESN'T WANT anyone to speak up on his behalf due to his ego...its like a guy not asking for directions when he's lost. Problem is he isn't convincing anyone, including himself. From a Sox fans perspective, the last thing we need is for the Yankee fans and the media to lay off of him, because if he breaks out he could carry this team. So I say bravo to the NY media and the Yankee fans, keep pummeling this guy that you boasted about all year last year, your 2005 MVP. Yes, keep bashing him, you're efforts are appreciated.