a700hitter

They can shove that deal. No freakin way. Theo had better hide his face if this is his big move.

That will make me feel much better as Abreu is raking our pitching.

You are soooo wrong. If you want to label smart management as "instant gratification" go right ahead, but you are overgeneralizing and you are being an apologist for some horrendous management decisions since 2004. First of all, I really don't think the team saved much money by letting Pedro walk. They gave an obscenely large contract to Clement who couldn't even pitch in the NL nevermind the AL. They also threw money at a broken down horse like Wade Miller. They wasted money on Renteria when they could have saved about 3 to 4 million a year if they kept OC. Take the $4 million/year overpaid for Renteria and the $8 million/year wasted on Clement. That's $12 million. We could have had Pedro for an additional 1 or 2 million/year. That does not get the payroll up to $150 million. Next, what makes you think Pedro couldn't pitch in the AL anymore or that he'll be broken down in years 3 and 4? Pedro did just fine in the AL for 7 years. Are you saying that he was in the twighlight of a great career? Where have I heard that before? All I know is that he made the All Star team last year and this year, so if he doesn't break down next year the FO has made a miscalculation. As for Damon, we could have kept him too without driving the payroll to $150 million. They will be paying Coco an average of 4.5 to 5 million a year. That leaves $9.5 million/year to come up with to keep Damon. They saved 3.5 million/year by letting Millar walk. Over the life of his contract Damon would cost about an additional $6 million. That plus the 1 or 2 million to keep Pedro gets you nowhere near $150 million and the core of your team is intact and still in their prime. Again you are so wrong. I am not going to do the research, because you made the assertion that prospects are so much more valuable today than in the 1970's because of the inflated prices for experienced players. You do the leg work and report back to me, but I'll tell you what you'll find. The average Fair Market Value of a major league franchise has skyrocketed since the 1970's despite today's high cost of labor. What did the Red Sox sell for in the 70's and what did they sell for this last time? Teams are making more money than ever before. There is good reason why MLB will not open its books to the players union. It's because they are making so much money that the players would scream that they are under paid. The balance sheets of teams today make those from the 70's look like what they were-- family owned businesses. Your theory holds no water. A player making $100 k in the 70's was a huge expense for those teams, and most teams couldn't afford it. The A's and other poor teams were always trading their stars for prospects. This is a total nonsensical statement. Are you saying that you would be willing to trade our prospects for a player being moved as a salary dump? What difference does the motivation of the other team make? Moving stars for prospects is almost always a salary dump. Otherwise why would a team trade a proven major league star for an unproven minor leaguer? Your response to my post should begin with a retraction of this idiotic statement.

I am not an advocate of filling all of our holes with FA's. I am also not in favor of the FO creating holes by letting our stars walk away, e.g. Damon, Pedro, and Lowe. If we kept those guys, we'd have a kick-ass rotation, and we'd still have Marte as a future third baseman or hot trading chip to help fill holes. Also, let's not forget that the FO created a hole by not signing OC and turned around and threw 40% more $ at Rent-an-error. OC had proved that he could play in Boston, that he was a great uplifting personality in the clubhouse and dugout, and he was way cheaper than Rent-a-Wreck. I don't even understand the point of this statement. Are prospects any better today than the 70's? Are they more likely to make the majors and become stars? When the yankees got Cone for 3 highly touted prospects that never amounted to major league players, that wasn't the 70's. What about when the Cardinals got M Gwire for 3 prospects that never made it. That was the late 90's. I guess your answer would be that it's not the 90's anymore. Well the fact is that we need 5 or 10 years to elapse to get a perspective on a trade of prospects. About 2010, we'll have a much better idea if Crisp for Marte was a good trade. One thing is for certain, Pedro, Damon and Lowe for no one in return is a terrible deal.

Loretta is not the strong link in our infield. He has very limited range, and average hands. He turns the DP great.

The "Duh" was a comment on your misreading of my post. It wasn't meant to be insightful. Duh. If they couldn't get WMP for prospects they should have looked elsewhere for a 4th OF. Established starters that take the ball every 5th day and win 10+ games a few years in a row are too valuable a commodity to trade for a project like WMP. We are paying the price for it now with 2 vacant stater slots that have basically been forfeit games. The 3rd slot is being held down by a rookie, who should be in the 5th slot.

That would be wild if Lugo ended up at 2B and we get a good bull pen guy like Linebrink for Loretta.

Read the post again. I was advocating trading a prospect to get WMP instead of trading Arroyo, an established major league pitcher. Duh.

Millar and Bellhorn cannot be mentioned in the same breath with Pedro, Manny, Nixon, Damon, Schilling and Foulke. Bellhorn and Millar are not major building blocks but rather role players. Billy Muellar was a major cog, but not to the level of Pedro, and Damon. Also, the FO knew that his knees were very very bad. His knees have been a chronic problem before he came to the Sox. Of course, you can't keep the same roster intact from year to year, but you keep the centerpieces like Damon and Pedro and build around them. The Yankees roster changed from 96 to 2000, but they kept the major building blocks: Mo, Jeter, O'Neill, Cone, Knoblauch until they could no longer perform. They kept their horses and rode them to 4 championships until they broke down one by one and then they replaced them and they have remained competitive every year. It can be done--keeping your stars while retooling and building your farm system at the same time. The Red Sox have done a good job building the farm, but they have not done a good job of keeping the ML Club at a Championship level.

The offense got burned out because they had to put up so many runs to keep a poor pitching team competitive. Offense in the playoffs usually falls off in the playoffs. Good pitching is a must for playoff success. You can't bludgeon your way to the championship. They let the greatest pitcher in the last 40 years walk away. You only do that if the guy just doesn't want to come back. Pedro never wanted to leave. This FO did n't learn from the Duke's mistake of letting the second greatest pitcher in the last 40 years walk. Also, they made a very poor job of restocking the bullpen. They were defending champions and they went bargain basement for damaged goods such as the perpetually injured Matt mantei and Wade Miller.

No one replaces Pedro, certainly not Mat Clement, even pre-beaning. That acquisition was widely questioned and criticized before he threw a pitch for the Red Sox. He had a long history of underperforming and spitting the bit in big games. Not in anyone's wildest dreams could he ever be anything close to an adequate replacement for even a 40 year old Pedro. As for Wells, he came with a small guaranty and a lot of incentive clauses. They might have let Lowe go and replaced him with Wells. That would have been a fair substitution for one year. And while there were problems with the bullpen in '05, it was compounded by the fact that the starters couldn't get deep in games. There were many games where the starters got torched early for a big crooked number of runs in the first couple of innings and Terry had to leave them in until it was a blowout. A bad rotation can kill a good bullpen (BTW this might be in the process of happening this year). A bad rotation coupled with a bad bullpen is fatal. IMO a good rotation can cover up a lot of deficiencies in a Bull Pen.

The rich get richer.

...and it is just this type of thing that keeps me from being giddy about the future with all the young talent. He's already had major arm issues at his young age. Anything can happen and often does to young pitchers. That's why good pitching at the major league level is at such a premium. Most of the young flamethrowers with electric stuff fall by the wayside for one reason or another. It was stupid of Theo to trade a proven young major league starter like Arroyo. He'd already done what 80% of our great prospects will never do-- make it to the big leagues and be successful in a starting rotation for a couple of years. Theo should have traded a prospect for WMP. I hope it is nothing serious for MDC, but if this guy is so delicate at this age, the FO should trade him while his stock and potential is very high.

I heard the kid interviewed, and he said that he sacrifices velocity in favor of movement with his submarine style. He sai that he throws around 80's-- that's no exactly a torrid heater.

Got mine too. I'll wear it proudly. Thanks SFoC!

It's taken me a while to get to this thread and digest it. Raven, I have to say that I was intrigued by this thread since it was posted. I am glad that someone has pointed out that the major building blocks of the 2004 Championship team were brought in by Duke. He brought in Trot, Pedro, Damon, Manny, Lowe, Varitek and Nomar (although he wasn't there at the end). Theo gets credit for the finishing touches of Ortiz, Schilling and Foulke. However, let's remember that when Duke ran the team the prior ownership had much tighter purse strings. He did not have access to the financial resources that Theo does. If he did, I think Duke could have made the Sox a powerhouse. Sure Duke blew it by letting the Rocket go, but he already had his sights on Pedro who he got one year later. On his budget he couldn't have them both, so he went young and signed Pedro for 7 years. Who could have predicted that Rocket would have pitched for 10 more years and won 3 Cy Youngs. I don't think any reasonable baseball executive would not have swapped Clememns for Pedro in 97-98. Theo has had much more in financial resources at his disposal. Duke could never have signed two big money guys like Schilling and Foulke in the same off-season. Even with the additional resources, Theo has already made enough mistakes to equal the Duke. Three mistakes come to mind--letting Pedro, Lowe, and Damon walk. This was the heart of the 2004 team and he let it leave. You can talk about age and the need to get younger, but keeping these guys would not have prevented or impeded the development of the farm system. There is absolutely no reason that these guys could not have been retained while building for the future. I think we can find a spot in the rotation for Pedro, even though we have young Mr. Beckett and Mr Lester. Another four year of Damon would have ended just as Ellsbury would be ready to step in and take over CF. I don't want to hear about the draft picks that we got for letting these guys walk, because it is just so ludicrous to justify losing an all-time great like Pedro for draft picks. This move makes Harry Frazee look like a genius for getting cash and a mortgage for Babe Ruth. Frazee could have bought plenty of players with that dough if he was interested in baseball. If I met Theo, I would thank him and kiss his ring, but the 2004 team was dismantled prematurely and unnecessarily. That group could have brought us one or two more titles, not to mention the one that Forest Gump, Grady Little let escape in 2003. Finally, I gained a new appreciation for Duke when I learned that he went to the 2004 World Series on his own dime, not as a guest of the Boston Red Sox, because he wanted to see his players and his team win the Championship. It showed me that he was a fan at heart. That is also what I like most about Theo-- that at his core Theo is also a big fan. Running a team as a business requires an emotional detachment, but if the GM is not at least partly a fan and the fan's perspective is not represented, then the business is not being run properly.

I disagree. Clement was useless after he got hit in the head. Keeping Pedro and Lowe would not have precluded getting Wells. Petey was shut down by the Mets because they were out of the running for the Wild Card. He would have stayed in the rotation if they were in the hunt for anything. Finally, we did have a shut down closer. We may not have known what Papelbon was capable of, but the Sox management was showing confidence in Papelbon late in the season in late inning situations albeit not as the closer. Timlin had a very good year, but was not a shut-down closer. That 5 game series turned to Chicago after the Gaffy error and Iguchi Homer. If Pedro pitched game 1, the White Sox might never have developed the confidence that carried them through the '05 post season.

He wouldn't be in a position of having to trade top prospects to win now if he hadn't let Pedro, Lowe and Damon walk. Get it. He put the Sox in this position. He created these deficiencies.

I am basing it on... that it happened. Duh.

Unit's ERA is over 5 going into August. I believe that I predicted several weeks ago that by August he would be a BP pitcher.

Better late than never. This is for you 26 to 6 Thuuuhhhh Yankeees Loooose!!! Thuhhhhhhhh Yankees Looooose!!!!

Are you talking about the same Theo that has dismantled the 2004 team that should have won at least a couple of Championships by letting the key components of Damon, Pedro and Lowe walk away.

But they don't have our farm system.

They are not helping their chances this weekend. Edit: They are 6 1/2 out of the wild card before today's game, and they have 5 teams ahead of them. It doesn't look like there is much hunt left for them.

Getting beat by Curtis Pride on a HR is embarrasing.