ksushi

You can't trade timlin, he was an FA this offseason. I'd be intruiged to see what we come up with for this. Perhaps Arroyo goes? Arroyo has been thought of as a guy who would greatly benefit in a move to the pen. Other than that, I say nay to dealing anymore youth.

Their not reporting that, some caller called in and said he saw it somewhere.

Yeah thats terrible. I'm worried.

I'm hoping for Matos and Michaels personally. We keep Marte and we get a CFer. All smiles. edit - the Guardians don't have to make it up so much as they only have to raise their standards as to what exactly it takes to pass their physical. thats all.

Riske is no stiff. Don't jest. 0.96 WHIP. I will repeat that number until your eyes bleed from reading it. Riske is great. Getting no holds could be from a change in role, champ it certainly doesn't determine a players effectiveness. K-Rate isn't god either though that is interesting I don't think its indicative of decline. I'm not saying throwing in Delcarmen would be the right thing to do, I actually think at this point you might strongly consider walking away getting Michaels and Mato's if your name is Theo Epstein. Shapiro is a tricky man, don't answer his phone calls, Theo. Mota is likely fine. My bet is on he is a little to pricey and Shapiro figures by reporting he 'failed' his physical he can squeeze out a cheap arm with big upside. "Ok, Mota, turn your head and cough... I think he might have a torn labrum, listen to that cough."

Alright first off, you cannot trade Seanez or Tavarez at this point in time. Second, this is likely a shakedown tactic by shapiro. He is now holding the sox by the ankles and shaking all the lunch money out of their pockets. He's going to get Delcarmen or their won't be a deal. Thats what I think. He's playing the sox big time. Pull a quick trigger on Graff for Matos put the pressure back on them. Counter with something similar to Shoppach and Marte for Crisp and Riske or something close to that. You can't deal another prospect in this, Crisp isn't good enough and Delcarmen has too much upside at this point.

Yep, that was my understanding too. Its roberts insurance. Completely makes sense for both sides as i see it

As a fourth outfielder Mato's would be great. That would be a great move. If the deal goes through for Crisp and its the original Crisp/Riske/Bard for Marte/Mota/Shoppach, I'll not say a word. We win in the pitching aspect of the deal, and although I believe Marte will be huge, yes Crisp will get better and could also be huge. I've read a lot about Crisps upside and his potential to have Damon-esque numbers in fenway especially as he matures as a hitter, thats definetly possible. Crisp is a good hitter I know that much. His defense still sucks, but I suppose that could improve. I'm really swallowing the bullet here, but I think that the difference between Mota and Riske tips the scale in our favor enough to make up for Crisps bad defense. Marte could be an invaluable asset for the next six years to what ever team he may play for, but people are right when they say he is only a prospect. We really don't know. I think he will be great, but a tommy john surgery could change all that. Marte for Crisp by itself is a lopsided deal in the Guardians favor, but David Riske is a very good pitcher and he's 28 years old. That is a setup guy who will be very valuable for awhile and I like that. A 28 year old reliever with a 0.96 whip is good in my book. Josh Bard or Kelly Shoppach I could care less, but it would be interesting to know if Bard has ever caught a knuckle baller. If the deal in anyway includes another sox prospect going out - Delcarmen, Murphy, and Big Edgar all being names I've heard as possibilities of being kicked in - its officially a horrible deal for us no two ways about it. If their package doesn't subsequently improve to Crisp/Riske/Adam Miller or another hot shot arm they have, its not worth doing. Hell it isn't even worth discussing as a joke.

Quick reply is easy and editing takes page loading, just wanted to say, 0.96 WHIP is what I meant to say, I think you knew that though since you didnt blast me for it. I don't dislike this deal because I think Crisp will be bad. I think the opposite actually, Crisp will be very good. I don't think he will play the best D, but in all likelihood, this will only get exposed in garbage time because of our improved pitching which will likely take the wheel in crunch time. The thing is though, I think Marte will be more than very good. He seems to have that way about him where when he walks back to the dug out, you don't know if he struck out, or is coming back from crossing home plate. He seems to be to be worth much more than Crisp, though, but you're right, its not like the Guardians are robbing us blind, its slightly tipped in their favor because we're winning in this deal big time right now, and it will continue to benefit us down the road as well since all the players in the deal are under the age of 30. Crisp being the youngest at 26. They'll see the benefit probably after they decline their option on Boone next year to make way for Marte, and he'll compliment a nice young offense to the tune of .250/20+/70-80rbi and only improving off of that line each year after while playing very nice defense. I think Marte will blossom into an all star and could be the kind of player that could net you a real difference maker at the deadline, or be kept in the fold and become a difference maker himself. If Riske is in this deal, I'll relax a little, but to me, you can't give up youth AND pitching to get hitting and sacrifice defense.

Just read something in my moms news paper that said that Riske isn't in the deal. IMO, no riske, no deal. Riske makes this whole thing palatable. Marte for Crisp sucks, Marte, Mota and Shoppach for Crisp and Josh Bard is like a shower scene in Oz and the Guardians aren't the ones looking for the soap. This could be pitiful. Sorry I'm posting this at like midnight, could have been talked about already but I slept all after noon and just picked up the paper now. *hits panic button* Riske is what makes this deal, him and his nice 0.96 WHIP will free up the Sox hands to deal arroyo for something pretty, or keep him and include him in what could be the best bullpen in baseball. I'm willing to be ok with getting beat up on the Marte deal, although I've fallen in love with Marte, I still love Bagwell so I guess long distance relationships are ok with me. If we get Coco we're definetly the most well rounded team in the East provided he plays a slightly better centerfield than he has in the past. However, Riske is 28, thats decently young, hes got an elite whip and he looks to be a guy who could be a real asset out of the pen along with our other... 5 right handed bullpen assets but thats besides the point. He's tops in this deal. Without him the difference between Crisp and Marte becomes glaring and Josh Bard sucks. Bard is worse than Shoppach, why do we want him? I'm going back to sleep. This shouldn't happen if Riske isn't involved.

Gagne likely isn't available. Just because he was hurt doesn't mean now the dodgers would deal him. They need him. Zito is going to go with other young arms. Beane recycles his talent and then some and he will get the next Zito in a Zito deal along with his next great OBP guy who can hit and play D. Its what Beane does. We won't want to make a deal with him. The more I read about this, the more I like it. I'm not on the verge of suicide anymore and my frown, while still slightly upside down, could turn into a smirk if I hear "marte" and "tommy john" any time soon in the same sentence. While crisp still sucks at defense IMO, he could get better. The jury is out until june, but really, when you need to fill a CF hole getting a Zito or Gagne isn't on your to do list at all. We didn't have much to work with even if we had what it took to get those guys... which we don't.

To me, age does not factor in the Michaels deal since I don't think he is the long term answer. Given the cost of talent its taking to reel in a CF he is more a more cost effective option for the time being. This move makes more sense. Acquiring crisp goes against the general philosophy we have seen here in building for the future. I'm sorry but the Sox have a brighter future with Marte than they do with Crisp, hands down. Unless we are getting a prospect at least of Anibal Sanchez stature in this deal, I'm dissappointed. My dissappointment could change depending on these two prospects, I admit. I don't like this deal as is, I don't like Crisp period. Until he does something manly like hit a grand slam in a series again the yankees when we are trailing by 3 or something that makes me smile, I'm not gonna like him for awhile. All grudges aside, he will hit, and depending on the prospects my frown could get turned against my will, upside down. Right now though, it doesn't look good. I might be visiting Frown City for quite some time.

Don't think the ball park has much factor in a players defense. I read reports that talk about Crisps bad instincts and lack of range and i read more on michaels praising the glove hes got. yankees suck, don't tell me to calm down on a baseball forum. if you don't like spirited baseball talk why do you come here? maybe you'd prefer one liners and very simple opinions, opinions that all agree with you of course, and nice happy people who don't care about their teams. Maybe you should stop reading, because I don't know about you, but to me baseball is something i love and im obsessed with the sox and I love to talk about them. If you don't feel that way and you want something more mellow, go look for it from somewhere that isn't a baseball forum.

The Guardians are in the same position of need after a Crisp deal with even more stocked young talent. Thats bunk. If the Sox don't pull the trigger on Mota for Michaels they have made a blatent mistake trading away our best position player prospect (one of the best in all of baseball) for a CFer of less value than that of Michaels who we could get without dealing the prospect. The Renteria deal started as a three way and then the sox just cut to the chase with the Braves. I hope this happens here. Crisp sucks. That is all. I'm not saying the Sox are stupid, we might be in the dark about something here, but with the facts we have now, it doesn't add up. I completely agree with presuming the sox front office to be smart until proven stupid. someone posted that somewhere, its a good quote.

Well, this is awful. Still upset. There was a blurb about how the Guardians are going to flip Mota for Michaels, and I think that sucks. The Sox are getting slapped in the face. If you can trade Mota for Michaels, Michaels being ~-10 runs defensively and Crips being ~+4, you do it. Crisp sucks at defense. This trade sucks. In 300 fewer at bats Michaels had more than comporable numbers, this is crap. The sox are getting beat up. And not to mention the sox might be kicking in another prospect to get in return to "low level" prospects. I don't know what they mean by low level, but with the kind of Front Office Rape the Guardians are laying on us right now, low level better mean 2 great prospects who are in a low level of the minor league system, as a opposed to crappy players. Either way, this sucks. All of this crap is pending on Mota passing or failing his physical. I hope he fails. We're trading our best prospect since Nomah for Coco f***ing Crisp. Joke. Absolutley a joke.

I am, quite obviously, a big fan of a good farm system. I don't think I have to tell you what I think of the Duke.

I'm sorry, but Crisp is not a good centerfielder, if the sox make this move its f***ing terrible. Its not O.K. its not just annoying, its not something a division title would make me forget about. Its f***ing terrible. Marte could be a gold gloving 40 homer threat under our control for the next 6 years. And you want to get Crisp for him? Coco Crisp? You're kidding me. He is a bad centerfielder who benefitted greatly from that move to left field. We don't need more offense, we're better off with a stop gap measure for this year, and search elsewhere for a more suitable long term replacement next year. Its the better solution. I'm sorry, this deal sucks. Not going to write anything happy about it or talk about it in depth, it sucks. We don't need a hitter, it'd be nice to get someone who could hit and play good D, but right now good D has to take priority. Why don't we just give them Papelbon and see if they can be gracious enough to give us Belliard and make an even bigger log jam for us at 2nd base. Oooh, I know, we can give them Marte, Lester and Papelbon and get Crisp, Belliard and Bob Wickman! That would be awesome. Nevermind guys, im happy now. The Red Sox were a lot more fun when they didn't have an excellent future lined up. Looking forward to 86 years of the Yankees s***ing on us is really just how it should be. Crisp might eventually be able to out-hit Damon, but thats because Coco won't be getting a cortazone shot every 3 days and Crisp isn't a deteriorating 34 year old. Crisp is not going to be Damon. Damon, despite his horrible arm, was a good fielder. Crisp takes awful routes and has bad outfield instincts. This is horrible. I'm going to mourn. Comparing dealing Renteria, instead of Marte, for Crisp is absurd. The Braves made a mistake in giving us Marte, they could have solved their hole at short, and at the closer position with him if they had waited on it. The acted out of need and sometimes thats bad. The Sox cannot act out of need right now. Despite how desparate a situation this may seem to be, if we finish 3rd in 06 with a stop gap CFer (which we won't BTW we will finish higher than that but just for the purpose of my arguement here) I would rather take that, than win the division and lessen our future. Forget it. Bad move. Post over. I'm going to sit in my bed cover my head with a pillow and cry. Thats right, cry.

Tino was drafted by the sox in 89 I think, funny huh? sorry, but really am i ever on topic?

Well aware, but Griff would be no better and for the sake of preserving his health you play him in the smallest outfield in the AL in fenways left. Its what you do. I'm not certain manny would be a disaster either.Kevin Millar wasn't even a disaster. Manny is a better fielder than Millar. I personally don't want much to do with Griff, but if we did land him, we would have to do everything we could to get him through the season and playing him in right field would not last long. He can't play a taxing position. Granted, any ML position on the field is taxing enough, I would put him in left.

Considering the size of Fenway's right field that might not do anything to help Griffey out. If anything put a deal together to bring reed here centered around nixon and switch griffey and manny putting manny back at his old home in Right Field to preserve Griffey. Manny has the arm for right. However, the sox do not need another question mark, and is anyone else here completely certain Griffey will not see an inning of playing time in the playoffs due to season wear and tear even if he his to stay mostly healthy? I want to win in the playoffs, not just the regular season. IMO, Griffey is a bad move. At this stage, although I am optimistic about most things, there are far too many question marks about the red sox to take on yet another question mark in Griffey. Schill is a ?, as is Beckett, and Foulke, might as well throw in Loretta since he was hurt so much of last year and while you're at it Nixon is far from a sure thing as well. Adding one more guy likely to break down just because he hits well when he does play is a bad idea for a club that if anything is in need of someone with durability if nothing else. To me, bad idea. If they gave us Felipe Lopez? Totally different story. Not giving up a big time prospect in this deal, but Felipe Lopez is something that could change my mind about taking on Griffey. However, Griff might not like Boston and does have a No Trade.

Defense at short helps a pitching staff big time. I really think the sox have an even better chance for making the post season with someone who plays the kind of D and hustles like Cora, rather than Edgar. I'm not going to lie though, I did like Edgar more than most, but I don't see any problem with Cora outside of his lack of star power. I do see a problem with Stern however, and I wouldn't be overjoyed with Michaels - more relieved to just have a CFer. My happiness would come from Dejesus or Jim Edmonds on the cheap. Well, it isn't like I have dreamless sleep, so I guess I can just go to bed early when I want to think about that for longer. That might be the only way those two pipe dreams will ever happen.

Agreed, Cora is very underrated. To me it seems like a lot of the fan base is hungry for a big name and this dissatisfaction with Cora comes from that - because he has about the same name recognition Mike Mordecai.... who has none. Yeah anyway, if you look at Cora closely, he offensively is going to give about the same output as OC would and Cora is reputed around the majors as being among the most intelligent and aware players in the game. He's got a nice glove and plays the game smart, nothing wrong with that guy. He might not be the face of the franchise, but he sure helps out the pitching staff with that glove of his. With our re-vamped infield defense the pitching staff will look great this year. My money is officially going on Jason Michaels to play centerfield for the sox. I think a Michaels and Clement and cash deal will happen sooner than later.

He threw a lot of fastballs on instruction from the sox. They were capping his innings because they were afraid to overwork him, and he was only allowed to throw his dirty slurve sparingly for fear it would put too much strain on his elbow. He basically was fastball split when he was up, but he actually has 5 pitches 3 of which are plus one average and a pretty unrefined change up. I don't know where the myth came from that he only throws a fastball, the one place that comes to mind for you to verify is that Analysts top 75. They talked about his pitches and actually claimed he had 5 good ones. I'm not sure about that, his change is pretty rough, but the slurve-curve is very nice and the split is developing nicely. Has a pretty good slider.

The royals system is thin? Not being much the royals buff, I wouldn't know but they don't seem like the type of team that would be thin in the farm. Weird. I know he makes next to nothing, but that doesn't mean its a automatic no-go, but yeah that team is leaps and bounds away from contention. It would be interesting to see if something could happen that wouldn't include a top prospect. We might be looking at a Jason Michaels type at this point.

Holy god man, I'm as happy as the next guy about Tavarez but he must be the ugliest man this side of sloth from the goonies. Please don't make me look at that long. Yeah that threw me too, Shoppach didn't have much ML experience at all. I think it might be because Papelbons role is undetermined.