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Can we just grab Adam Dunn for shits and giggles, without moving Manny? Manny, Drew and Dunn in the OF. Move Crisp, Masterson and whoever else it takes, getting insurance for either Manny's aloofness or Ortiz's hand? Team stays pat and they lose. Anyone remember the movie The Three Amigos? The Amigos use the strategy of riding around in a circle around villians doing fancy tricks and leaving those in the middle not overwhelmed, but befuddled? I feel that the Rays, Angels and Yankees are on those horses and the Sox--appropriately--are El Guapo in the middle.

Don't we have some exclusive deal with the Seibu Lions? Manny would play in Iraq, let's send him to Japan.

This is craziness. Those of you who wanted Manny to stick around may get your wish. Unfortunately that means that the Sox will more than likely have to part with actual VALUED talent to get the LF of their future instead of getting rid of the guy they wanted to get rid of in Manny. Damn!

Why make someone use the ignore feature instead of just researching? You shouldn't be confused. I answered the question in my post and you ignored it. Jason Bay will be a FA in 2009--if at that time they want to get rid of him, chances are he will be a type-A FA, so they will get similar draft picks (probably better because he will cost less and therefore be more affordable for 'worse' teams). He also happens to be as good as any realistic options as a LF replacement for next year--remember you scoffed at the idea of being able to name anyone else because none of us are GMs? Do you often not pay attention to things you care about? You said very clearly "I don't pay attention to what goes on in Pawtucket, Portland, etc.. OMG!", so I took that to mean that you don't care. Maybe you REALLY, REALLY care, but you have an odd way of showing it. The internet is an amazing tool. You can learn about all sorts of things without needing to see them every day. You have had access to all of Manny's 4000 ABs as a Sox, but I assume you are making these bold proclamations about how amazing he is without having seen every AB. Let's assume you look at the numbers a bit to supplement what you don't know... how's that sound? But earlier you said: 1. nobody honestly believes the Sox will let Manny go for NOTHING, they will get something in return. 2. Bay may be a slight downgrade career-wise, but if you compare him to other players who might be available in LF (including 2008 MannY), I think we should be happy that he's one of the options. If you add to that the 13m difference between Manny and Bay, and look at what can be done by this FO with 13m, then the choice seems very obvious to many. You never responded to the comparable OPS players that I gave you for Bay (multiple HOF players included), nor have you used a number or two to describe why you find Bay to be SO MUCH WORSE than Manny. If their numbers aren't reflected in their production then I think we're talking about our memories of Manny rather than what he is actually capable of as a player currently. I would say the sentimental pictures thread started this morning is more a reflection of memories than on-field value. I DO appreciate the pictures thread, but this is like watching the stages of grief. Let's try to separate our fond memories of Manny during his best Sox years from the very black/white decision that the front office is making to keep this team competitive. That's what options are for. The team has the OPTION of not resigning him. If they choose not to exercise his option, which is LOCKED at 20m per year, then do you think he would re-sign with the Sox for his actual value, or should we just lose the difference in money (say, 6m a year) and thus risk losing Ortiz or Beckett when their contracts come around for re-upping? These are choices that teams have to make, whether or not the player they are thinking about is well-liked or has had a great career. All the more reason to worry that he's injury prone. If he's already missed time in his first few years and has never put up numbers like Bay, why should we think the Sox would be better off having him this year over Bay? It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe its better for the next 7 years, but for the next 2, I don't think so. Jacoby, you should really find the ******* who stole your computer and wrote: because he's making you look bad. I might agree with you on all of these things, but this is a move that most GMs would likely make if the player were doing what Manny is doing. If you think he "knows when to let big-name players go" then the only question is really whether or not Bay is an adequate replacement, not whether Manny should or should not be re-upped at 20m a year. That one is a no-brainer. So, again, my question would be "who else is a realistic and adequate possible replacement?" Given how important minor-leaguers are to deals like this, you should look at our minor leagues (say, soxprospects.com) and see which players we have who could get the player you want most. The consensus--as far as I can tell--would be a top-tier talent like Holliday, but the consensus is also that Holliday would take a LOT of talent to get.

Atheletes in general deserve what they make, given how much money is in the game. That said, not EVERY athelete deserves they contract they currently have, and they can do things to either warrant the contract or not. Things like hustling, showing up at spring training, being a good leader/role model, not insulting their bosses, etc., all go into how most bosses determine whether or not to pick up options. Especially when those options cost the price of (as mentioned before): Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Papelbon, Beckett, Jason Bay and David Wright.

Without knowing how the system works you can't understand why decisions are made. For instance, the Red Sox let go of Pedro Martinez and got a draft pick. Who did they sign with that draft pick? The Sox let go of Orlando Cabrera (but he did SO MUCH FOR THIS TEAM!!! YAY!!) and who did they get (hint... you call yourself by his name). If the Sox FO didn't care about any of this, if they didn't care about the draft or the minor leagues then a lot of these decisions would not have made sense. By understanding how the rules work and how the FO attempts to construct its team to get THE MOST FOR THEIR MONEY then one is bound to judge everything based on very superficial ideas... And I would counter that for the money (20m), and with some smart draft picks, the Sox could pay for the following signed/developed talent (approx 2008 salary): Jacoby Ellsbury: 400,000 Dustin Pedroia: 450,000 Jonathan Papelbon: 800,000 Kevin Youkilis: 3 million Josh Beckett: 9.5 million and still have enough to pay, say, David Wright (Mets) (5m). Get the point? You would "just pick up Manny's option" which is one reason that you will never be a GM. NOBODY will pay Manny 20m, let alone the 25 he says he will get. Look at his numbers the past 2 years, look at his age. I'm not trying to be a downer, but seriously, get real. He's an aging star whose numbers have dropped over the past few years. He's still pretty good but he's not going to get better--given the talent listed above, I think it is pretty clear to see why the Sox FO thinks they can spend their money better than by signing Manny at 20m per. How would you know? What do you know about controlling the future? Do you know what "options" are, or that Manny has a no-trade clause? I predict injuries based on history of injuries. Hermida has a history of injuries and hasn't played more than 120 games in a season. Jason Bay (if he plays 15 more games this year) will have played in 120 games in 5 consecutive seasons--his ONLY 5 seasons in baseball. There's a heirarchy though: 1. Actual GMs 2. Wannabe GMs 3. Fans who understand how the business side of the game works but who know the actual GMs know it better. 4. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, but who know it is an important--though complicated--system that explains many otherwise confusing moves. 5. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, but who are too ignorant to know that it is important. 6. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, who are too ignorant to know that it is important, and who MOCK those who DO care about how the business side of the game works. 7. Fans who don't understand business side, too ignorant to know it is important, mocking those who take the time to learn it, while also thinking they are smarter than the Actual GM's at the top of the heirarchy. (that's you, apparently) I like your enthusiasm (honestly, I do), but you really have to step up the depth of your analysis if you want to understand how the game works. Or, you need to step up your humility. I've learned a lot from people like ORS, Jacksonian and JHB, but only because I've stayed open to their analysis. Hopefully you will take some time to read about how the system works before thinking your brief inclinations reflect some abstract mastery of its intricacies. I'm not saying that I'm "right", but usually if you think you know way better than the multi-million GM who has helped produce 2 WS rings, you should check (and then re-check) your logic before being so bold as to say so out loud. If you're starting with "Who cares about the minor leagues" I'd say re-checking your work is still pretty far away. Right now is the time for you to learn how teams work.

1. "Has" put up huge numbers. Last year were Gom and Jacksonianmarch reveling in their 26 World Series Championships while the Sox were dancing in Coors? Perhaps you don't understand that baseball is a business. It is all about what have you done for me lately, and the owners (who ultimately fork out the 20m per year for a guy like Manny) have every right to demand nothing but the best. Know how you feel when you order a Filet Mignon and it comes to the table charred and dry? Multiply that by 500,000 and you'll see where John Henry is coming from here in the 8th year of Manny's career. 2. The media doesn't appreciate him enough? The only person not appreciating is Manny. How much money would it take for you to hustle when you're trying to PROVE that you're worth 25m a year? Is he worth 25m (100/4) because he plays hard every day, or because his knees are too sore to run down the line? He can't have it both ways. 3. Want to see what a player who cares looks like? Look at Varitek after he K's recently, or Ortiz. I'm not a Manny hater. I'm really not. He's always been one of my favorites. I just think it is important that people look at the various players individually. Jason Bay is not 'average', he has been very, very good and his age and current level of production seem to indicate that he will continue for awhile at a considerably lower cost. Why don't you criticize Manny for saying he'll get 25m a year as a FA instead of taking less to stay with the Sox? If everyone acknowledges that he's a mid-900 OPS guy, that his best season from here on out will likely be 30 HR/120 RBI, then why should the Sox SETTLE for draft picks if they can get a Jason Bay? This discussion should really be about Jason Bay, not Manny Ramirez. Manny leaving was inevitable, and Bay is likely better than anyone the Sox would have acquired as a FA in the offseason.

So, a lot of people here are very close to the ledge and are drawing lines in the sand in terms of this deal. Jason Bay is an excellent pickup for Manny if it is true, given the current situation. Here's the deal folks: (contest any of the following premises if you want) 1) We all love Manny's antics and his bat, over his career with the Sox in particular. However, if a deal does not happen then Manny Ramirez will be with the Sox through this season only. After that he will be gone. 2) Manny Ramirez makes 20,000,000 a year but plays like someone who deserves 13-14m. 3) Manny has asked for trades explicitly numerous times 4) Manny has called out the FO, accusing them of disrespecting him despite being a top-5 paid player in baseball 5) Despite attempts to claim otherwise, Manny did NOT single handedly win the World Series for the Red Sox. Without Dave Roberts the Sox lose. Period. (and Roberts didn't do it single handedly either, same could be said of Schilling, Mueller, Foulke, etc.,) 6) The Red Sox continually tried to meet Manny's request, but have been largely unable to do so for anything approaching equal value (equal value = progressively: 5 yrs of Manny, 4 yrs of Manny, 3 yrs, etc.,). 7) Manny's current value is NOTHING OTHER THAN August, September and part of October of 2008 Manny. His current value is not his HOF numbers, it is not his 2004 performance or his 1.097 OPS of 2002. His current value is his .932 OPS and his mediocre defensive play. It is mitigated by his off-field absurdities. 8) Jason Bay is not an "average" outfielder--as some have claimed here. He has a career .892 OPS. Let's put that in some context: that places him 72nd ALL TIME, just below Magglio Ordonez and just above Nomar. It is also above Willie McCovey, Willie Stargel, Eddie Matthews, Harmon Killebrew, Derrek Lee, Pat Burrell, Derek Jeter, Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Lee, Fred Lynn, Aramis Ramirez, Paul Konerko, Kirby Puckett, Andruw Jones or Miguel Tejada... to name a few. He has the 4th best SLG in Pirates history. 9) As far as I know, all of the above was done with no noticable steroid or HGH usage (no power surges, no growth, etc.,). 10) We would also have Bay for 2009, allowing us to go after a guy like Matt Holliday if that makes anyone feel better. 11) Bay costs 7.5m in 2009, was the 2004 ROY, has driven in 100+ runs twice (on a s***** team). 12) Bay is not represented by Scott Boras, and may sign for a reasonable deal if he is worth keeping. ========= I could go on and on about why the Sox making a deal to bring back Bay for a year-plus is more than reasonable given the time constraints and the limits of players available. Again, please lay out other plausible scenarios for the remainder of this season and the post-Manny era and why they are better than getting Bay. Would people be okay here if Manny hadn't played for most of the rest of the season by putting himself on the DL in an effort to pout about not having his TWENTY MILLION dollar option picked up? There is no doubt that Jason Bay is not Manny Ramirez overall. Manny is one of the best hitters of all time. However, he is not CURRENTLY one of the best hitters of all time and his time with the Sox is precarious and very short. Please offer something better before slamming someone as good as Jason Bay. Anyone else ask themselves why other teams weren't willing to part with other good talent to get Manny? (hint: it's bcause he's not as good as he used to be). Finally, a particular Yankees fan made the point that it was disgraceful that Sox fans were booing Manny. f*** that. Yankees fans were booing Alex Rodriguez last year when he didn't do what fans wanted. Get over yourself. It is fair for fans of ANY TEAM to want their players to hustle and to shut up and play. Again, Manny Ramirez makes $40,000 PER AB (assuming he gets 500 plus ABs per year) (we all acknowledge that Manny is paid to hit, right? He would be the DH if we had an open spot, right?). All those who make ONE lazy-Manny-run to 1st in a year (40,000), raise your keyboards!! All those who make TWO lazy-Manny-runs to 1st in a year (80,000), raise your keyboards!! Anyone here make the equivalent of THREE lazy-Manny-runs to 1st in a year (120,000)? FOUR (160,000)? He did that in the last 3 days. Do I begrudge him trotting down the line sometimes? No. I do begrudge him for acting as if this isn't part of it for fans who hear him saying he doesn't want to play for the Sox, or in Boston, or who say that someone who is willing to pay him that much to NOT be Albert Pujols or A-Rod is disrespecting him. He says the Sox are disrespecting him for not picking up his 40m option for the next two years. DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT HE IS WORTH 20m A YEAR? Anyone who would pay him 20m with his current production should lose their GM job. Furthermore, anyone who would not trade those as-of-yet undetermined draft picks for a year and a half of Jason Bay when you have a gaping LF hole is also making me wonder about their sanity (ps... we can get draft picks if we let Bay go after 2009, so we can get other guys JACOBY ELLSBURY hasn't heard of Bay is not the only answer to the question of how to replace Manny so this team wins. That is the goal, isn't it? Would anyone complain if the Sox made a push and replaced Wakefield with, say, Yu Darvish or spent their money in some other very productive way in the future? Jesus, let's get creative here with the 13m difference between them. Lord knows Theo would LOVE to have that possibility.

What does this even mean?

I like Bay's OBP and OPS better than Hermida. Isn't Hermida injured regularly too?

Players like Nomar, who pouted on the bench while the team played extra-inning games against the Yankees down the stretch? These players will not feel respected unless they're given the money they are demanding.

Manny is a boyfriend who knows he is going to get dumped and is trying to tell people that he's the better person for it. He's got every defensive mechanism working for him right now and, frankly, I find it kind of sad and pathetic if the Manny era ends this way. To say that he's seen other players like Nomar and Pedro disrespected for not being resigned, who then went on to suck balls, shows me he is just doing everything he can to hurt the FO's feelings (probably to little effect) and to make the fans turn against Manny. Look Manny, I'll say it again, you make $40,000 per AT BAT. You bitch and moan like someone who has never had to work hard a day in your life. You jog to 1st, getting nearly $450 per FOOT traveled. I loved you for years but go F yourself buddy. Manny will enter the HOF with a big "C" on his hat, no doubt.

The Red Sox don't 'deserve' a player like Manny though, remember? He deserves 20m a year, but they don't deserve him. f*** him. Get Bay and a prospect if you can and be done with him.

Seriously man, WTF? Stop trying to be the center of attention... or something.

It doesn't make sense for the Tigers. The Yankees have added to their team in a pretty helpful way. It doesn't send shivers down my spine fearing Pudge (unless he gets Pudgy again thanks to HGH) but it's a nice pickup. Why Farnsworth would have ANY value for the Tigers I just don't know. I'm not screaming conspiracy, but usually I can understand things like this and now I can't.

Bay is an adequate replacement for Manny. An outfield of Bay, Ellsbury and Drew would be pretty solid, he is RH so that helps. Just for shits and giggles so I can see it on "paper": Pedroia Youkilis Bay Ortiz Lowell Drew Varitek Lowrie Ellsbury Does that lineup make sense? Protect Bay with Ortiz, or keep Ortiz at 3? Again, s***ing and giggling at the same time.

That's much more what I'm talking about. Let Manny go, throw in a prospect or two to make the deal work, sign Bay to a multi-year deal next year. :dunno:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Manny is having a season about as good as JD Drew is having in terms of his production, if you look at BP's BRAR and BRAA numbers. That's pretty good but would anyone actually say that only Albert Pujols could replace JD Drew? Not ALL successful teams have a 3-4 combination like Ortiz and Ramirez. It isn't a prerequisate--winning teams can be constructed in all sorts of ways. The fact that none of us take it as a GIVEN that this guy will show up and play every day should be very concerning, no? I don't know if he is a cancer now or not. I do know that he told teammates last week that he would sit out until the KC series, and that was what prompted the Sox to get him to have 2 MRIs and to force him into the lineup. I don't know how cancerous he is, but if he had his way he would be WORSE, not better. You're right that at this point he's a very important part of this lineup. At the same time, during what for Manny is an "average to below-average" season, the Sox are second in baseball in run differential (or were two days ago, at least). Let's just stop being held hostage by this guy, basing our success or lack of it on Manny's ability to hit. He's a terrifying hitter for other teams, but he's not Albert Pujols or A-Rod. He just isn't.

So you've answered my question in the way I figured you all would. It's true, Manny won't get anything close to 20m. Given that Manny initially asked to know whether or not he was going to get his extension, and that this whole blow up was a response to not being told one way or another, isn't it safe to assume that he actually WANTS to get the extension? The psychology behind the situation tells me: 1) Manny wants the extension 2) Manny knows he won't get anything close on the open market 3) the Sox don't want to pay him 20m a year to be worse than many other players in the league--even if he's still a good hitter 4) Manny knows the Sox don't want to pay him (like he says "they smart") and he knows they will have no problem cutting him loose. Ultimately, Manny is unable to cope with the cognitive dissonance of not being worth what his contract currently pays him, and the coming disparity between what his body can do and what his paycheck says for the next few years. He's seeing his career flashing before his eyes and, despite his tremendous skills on the field, he lacks the skills he will need to deal with his aging and the reality of his situation. He has defined himself with baseball for his entire life, and now he sees that he's preparing to sign his last contract and it won't be as great as other people are getting. Is there a way to placate his psyche and get him comfortable enough to play for the Sox for the next 3 or 4 years? How about a 3 year deal with lots of incentives that could pay him more than 20m a year if he earns it and pays him a reasonable (but comparable to other good OFs, say 13m) salary if he doesn't? Basically, I think he's lashing out as a defensive stance, telling people he's God's gift to baseball, while believing inside that he can't do what he once did, and that he is no longer worthy of being a top-5 paid player in baseball. He's clearly got what we would call in social work some "social issues".

It's not just our GM who wants to trade our "best hitter" (who I would rank as our 2nd or 3rd best hitter). I want him gone too. (not that it matters )