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Jeez. A slacker? No focus?

I think it is an interesting and important discussion, and when I search my soul I realize that part of me is tending to play devil's advocate on this one to move the discussion along. I'm actually inclined to agree with your more-immediate approach for two reasons: 1) the season is growing short. When the rosters are expanded soon Ellsbury can re-join the team (if he hasn't already) and may have worked out his kinks with consistent time in AAA. 2) Ellsbury is young so there will be plenty of time for him to be a young and productive player. His numbers are in no way irreplacable, and with Crisp his defense is negated anyway. If my argument holds (that he's young and shouldn't be expected to be the offensive centerpiece of the team immediately), then it should also hold that they can do without him on the roster for a few months in a year where they are legitimately contending for a World Series and are fortunate enough to have a guy like JVE lighting up AAA. He can still ultimately provide that bench support or get his swing back, but the Sox can give a shot to a guy who is playing at the PEAK of his potential at the peak of his career and you'll hear no complaints from me. I am not as strong in my support for the move as you (and others) are, because I can tolerate a "good enough" approach from a team that has had players like Ricky Guitteriez and Dave McCarty and Gabe Kaplar in the past and been fine. I see immediate vs. long-term benefits as the main argument, and right now I am fine with them choosing the immediate benefit of giving JVE a shot. PS--I hope you know you don't have to provide overall stat links to me ORS... I appreciate it, but c'mon man, I can find them!! I looked at his stats but didn't know how his defensive/on-basepaths skills played out. PPS--One thing I can definitely look at and salivate over is JVE's .529 and .524 SLG the past two years. At 28 he promises to not become a hall-of famer, but he also promises some maturity and substantial professional experience.

So we agree: Ellsbury can play in the lineup, go to the bench, or spend some time in AAA and the Sox are a very good team regardless. My inclination then would be to let him take his bumps at MLB so he gets over the 'hurdle' of finding his stroke against MLB pitchers, rather than having him do so at AAA and then have to do it again at the MLB level. The Sox (rightly) want this kid to feel he belongs at MLB because he's proven what he needs to in the minors.

While I tend to agree with you, I don't see Manny and Boras going to the Angels and saying "Hey, we'd happily join your team for 13-15m a season, just sign on the dotted line." No, there will be playing one team off against another and falsely heightening the amount of interest in him. We've seen it all before. So, the Angels go to Teixeira and say "Mark, we'd love to have you on our team. We gave up talent to get you and we're prepared to give you a deal that will get you 17m a year for 6 years." I also think that other teams will grossly overpay Manny simply because he brings flash and media attention to any team he plays for. He won't get 25, but he won't get 14 either.

Really? I don't. I don't think he's a Scioscia kind of player at all. Scioscia likes fundamentally sound players who offer versatility and who are consumate professionals. Manny's antics at a 20m pricetag will not fly with that style. Some other (less intelligent) franchise (like the dodgers) will make that run at Manny and will land him. Why wouldn't the Angels just resign Teixeira and be done with it? They need a 1B, Teixeira will probably be cheaper, as good at the plate and better in the field.

I guess I feel like you're trying to start an argument and I'm simply not giving you the ammunition. You clearly must believe it is Ellbury's fault the Sox were losing--you said it in earlier posts--because that's the only thing we disagree on. I think that's overly reductionistic and I don't think that's how baseball works. There's room on the bench and a perfectly adequate CF on the bench who is making a lot more money and who started nearly every day last year. What's wrong with letting Crisp play and sitting Ellsbury? I just don't think it is the be all and end all of the Sox season, you do. We start with different premises and I think any argument from that point-on is kind of moot. Is Ellsbury underproducing? yes. Did the Sox win with an underproducing CF last year? Yes. Do teams all over the league have a player or two who are disappointing for long periods? Yes. Can those teams still be contenders for World Series champions? Yes. I feel you're missing the forest for the trees--the Sox have the 4th best record in ALL OF BASEBALL. They have the best run differential in the AL. They just moved their biggest headache and have a good schedule from here on out. We can focus on Ellsbury as the one key piece that's keeping this team from winning, but I would counter that a) they are winning, and if Lowell, Drew, Ortiz, Youkilis, Pedroia, Bay, Varitek, Beckett, Matsuzaka, Lester, Buchholz, Wakefield, Delcarmen, and Papelbon are all doing their jobs, the Sox should win more times than not and be just fine. To me, the best case scenario is that the veterans and highly paid guys do their job and the Sox win. The fan base gets off their irrational view that one mediocre player is the sole reason they are losing to teams like the Angels and realize that we have a good team nonetheless. All will be fine TheKilo, seriously.

Tend to your own house Jacko. Let's replace the word "Ellsbury" with the words "Melky Cabrera" and then we can talk about sending both of them down or not talk at all. Ellsbury: .259/.323/.352 Cabrera: .242/.296/.341 I'm inclined to let him stick with the big club if only because his secondary skills (defense and base running) are both exceptional and will be valuable off the bench. I am also confident that he will bounce back from these poor performances. TheKilo, you're making too much of my quote above. I clearly didn't say that he's doing great, or that he's having a wonderful season. What I said was the the Red Sox were NOT losing because of Jacoby Ellsbury. He would certainly have helped contribute to victories if his OPS were approaching .800 instead of .600, but to focus on him as the sole reason for losses is myopic.

Adjustments happen in lots of ways. I know that, for me, it would take a lot of time simply to adjust to the MLB schedule, cross-country travel, getting into town late, and then facing MLB caliber pitching. I'm not making excuses, but I'm also the type who believes that going through the hard times is often a prerequesate for growth. I won't argue with you about the results on the offensive side of the ball. He would be allowed to go through this process on most other teams, and I think his talent warrants not religating him to the doghouse if we can avoid it and remain competitive. Sure, give Crisp more ABs.

I think it is important to point out that hitting in front of guys like Pedroia, Ortiz, Manny should be an advantage. However, it is also a curse because you are absolutely, positively going to get attacked. A guy like Ellsbury, who may need to take some bumps for a few months, will gett attacked by opposing pitchers as his out is one of the few they can hope to get against this lineup. The bottom of the order should help with that. I'm fine with whatever they do at this point. However, I think it is fair to point out that BABIP should be adjusted for players who have as much speed as Ellsbury. It isn't a coincidence that Ichiro's BABIP has been as high as it has. Balls in play are harder to get those guys out, plain and simple. Perhaps Ellsbury could use some time in AAA to gather himself, but I think the Sox may be back in a spot where they can afford to have a guy who "just" plays gg caliber CF and doesn't produce a whole lot from the bottom of the order. I see plenty of reason for optimism: he's young and he HAS produced at the MLB level for weeks-on-end (so the 'he can't handle MLB view'--not yours, but a common complaint against rookies--doesn't hold water IMO). If there's someone in AAA who is hitting better and who deserves a shot, sure, go for it. I just still see lots of reasons for optimism about Ellsbury. It would be foolish for the Sox to give up on him at this point.

I like that you play these out for us thekilo. It's a lot of speculation but it's fun to read and think about. Your prediction has the Sox winning at a lower rate (.560) than they have played all year (.571). Given that this team was missing David Ortiz for nearly 2 months and were apparently unlucky (highest run differential in AL), it seems much more likely to me that they will surpass your expectations. To wit, To get to 100 wins: .720 (36-14) To get to 95 wins: .620 (31-19) Some of the extra wins could be in the two series you have them losing at home to TOR, the home series vs CWS and the 2-2 series at home 9/22-9/25 vs. Cleveland. If the Sox don't do better against these teams at home I will be very disappointed. Of course, they could counter that by going 20-5 on the road. That's what fun about guessing. If this team really is gelling thanks to moving Manny (which I suspect they will) then a 95 win season is in the cards. The .620 WP would be the same as their record after their FIRST 50 games (31-19) and 95 wins would be a really good season.

Not very well, for what it's worth. I kid, I kid... Look man, I wasn't just trying to give you s***. I was responding to your abundant posts dissing Bay and glorifying Manny, combined with your seeming lack of knowledge about how the franchise works. Instead of saying basically "someone explain to me why this would make ANY sense for the Sox" you were pushing the "s***** trade" line with nothing to back it up. I'm not a hostile prick, and I apologize if you took it that way. ORS is right about your poor timing... you also ran into me as I was getting my talksox legs back under me after a hiatus and your posts were easy pickings. I'm still confident that you misjudged the trade situation, but I hope our brief encounter doesn't turn you off to this site or to me. It's a great site with all types of posters and many different types of arguments and I'm sure we'll agree on things too. For instance, you will struggle to find a bigger Jacoby Ellsbury fan than myself, so we have that in common (I assume, from your name). There's something I like about you... I think you'll learn alot here (and I don't mean from myself) that will make you a very valuable poster. Cheers. :thumbsup:

I think it is dangerous to assume that Manny was perfectly fine and suddenly turned when he got Boras. He isn't a guy who was making 3m a season and putting up enormous numbers; he's a guy who is used to being paid 20m a year and is defensive about the fact that he no longer warrants it.

Exactly. It is choices like this that allow them to outbid teams for players like Matsuzaka with 51m, to overpay for highly touted (but college committed) draft picks, or to sign people in their prime unlike just about every other team in baseball (we all know who the other teams are). Again... no brainer.

Just what the hell have the Sox done? Look, MANNY WAS NOT GOING TO BE WITH THE RED SOX IN 2009!! They had a choice: have Manny leave at the end of the season and go find a corner OF (in which case Jason Bay would have been one of the best available), or USE Manny's value for the rest of this season to plan beyond his Sox stay in 2009. In other words, either: 1) let him go and get draft picks but create a gap in LF that only a few players can approach filling and which would have required giving away some of our best prospects to fill it or... 2) trade him to fill that gap and be done with his headaches while also saving the team's best prospects. Manny would have wanted 25m a season next year. Is that something the Sox "did"? No, that's Manny's ego telling him to demand more than he's worth. The Sox aren't in the business of placating egos, they're in the business of putting a quality product on the field. Right now, in August, the team seems a little downgraded. However, they were going to be REALLY downgraded if we held onto Manny for 2 more months and then had him leave. Look at the available corner OFs available after this year and tell us what they should have done after this season. It really is a no-brainer folks, as far as I can see.

Cheers Yeszir! It's actually too bad that we had to let go of Moss (IMO), though I'm not sure right where he fit in and the Sox need to have the ability to have someone in a COF spot who can consistently put up a .900ish OPS. Bay is one of those people and the only one available as far as I know. They save money and they get a guy to move them forward positively. No movement on a RP huh?

I'm at airport, plane left at 4:25 when deal not yet announced. Internet here is slow, don't want to search for every detail. TheKilo, or someone, explain paramaters of the deal please: I understand it is Manny, Hansen and Moss for Bay. Is that right?

Other sites saying Bay to LAD, probably turned around in some other deal involving Manny to LAD. Please...

The Red Sox are the Squeezee today, not the Squeezer.