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From the various rumors and people 'in the know' it looks like this isn't going anywhere. My question is, is there any reasonable chance that Manny Ramirez makes 100m/4yr anyplace on the open market? We can all talk about how he can still rake and how he's a valuable member of this team, but he's getting old, he's falling behind good heaters and his ability to hit the ball out of the park is considerably reduced compared to 5 years ago. What would this guy, by some other name, get on the open market? Personally, I think he's insane to expect 25m/season. I think he's insane to expect 20m a season. A-Rod in 07 and 08: 76 HR, 219 RBI Manny in 07 and 08: 40 HR, 156 RBI * If anyone deserves top dollar, it is undoubtedly A-Rod. Compared to Manny's production the two are in different leagues. Carlos Lee: 56 HR, 216 RBI Derrek Lee: 39 HR, 148 RBI Adam Dunn: 70 HR, 176 RBI I just picked those guys at random. I think Manny is somewhere in their class, in terms of his production and OBP ability. None of those three will be sniffing 25 million anytime soon. He's dilusional to hope for better than the 20m option the Sox will offer him.

You probably don't need them, but off the top of my head... We still have the Wild Card despite playing some s***** series against the Angels (twice) and the Yankees (once) over the past few weeks. We have Josh Beckett, other teams do not. Playoffs/big games are more fun with him around. (Same can be said of Manny and Ortiz... for the most part). Pedroia is having the year of his life and is blossoming into one of the best all-around players and leaders in baseball. He could play for another 15 seasons. The Angels--not the Yankees--appear to be the team to beat for the World Series. The front office is not as reactionary as you or I are. We are the defending World Series Champions--even if we don't win in 08 (which we very much can) that is something to rest our hat on and not lose sight of. We only got David Ortiz back a few nights ago. JD Drew is looking less like a bust than he did at this time last year. Our farm system has depth and is contributing to the current success of the team (Lester, Papelbon, Youkilis, Pedroia and Ellsbury to name a few). The season is 162 games long and there are still 54 games left The Sox have the 2nd best run differential in all of baseball--Ex W-L puts us 20 games over, and the D-Rays 10 games over. The Sox have a better record at this date than they did in 2004 and the 4th best record in baseball need this post go on with reasons to be optimistic?

You're right that his performance the past month and a half has been bad. Of course, to say that any one player is single-handedly "killing" the team, on a team with a 133,000,000 payroll (of which he accounts for well less than 1%), seems to be overstating it a bit. He's not making errors at an ungodly pace, he's simply underproducing in a manner that isn't helpful but which happens on teams all the time. TheKilo, I hear and understand your frustration. The Sox are in a tough spot right now, as SS, C and CF (the three top defensive positions) are all producing virtually nothing offensively, and there are no prospects for any to be improved upon any time soon. I think by the end of the season Ellsbury will have come around--his chances seem much better than those of Lug-cora-ie or Varitek. Veterans haven't been producing at a break-neck pace either. Youkilis has been good, but Lowell has a .654 OPS for the last month and Varitek is hitting at a .549 OPS pace during that period. Blame Ellsbury if you must, but he's not single handedly killing anything. I was at the game tonight. Manny's hustle was pathetic. I'm a very 'lax' kind of guy. I don't chew players out around here for taking the game patiently, not always hustling, making tons of money, whatever. It's a long season and a routine groundball is a routine groundball. But when Lackey has a no-hitter going and the Sox have their rookie on the hill and Manny twice hits balls to the left side and doesn't hustle, once with the ball nearly being thrown away and the 1B needing to jump to get the ball and still getting him, I can't stand it anymore. Neither could Fenway. The boos were loud and clear. The man makes nearly $40,000 per AB if he is tough enough to get 520 ABs a season. In a night he can earn half a house, or a very expensive college education. In two nights his check is roughly 300,000. The least he can do is run down the f***ing line.

Is your argument that one should get impatient and determine that Ellsbury won't make it in the big leagues? It seems he was merely pointing out that Pedroia took awhile to get going but once he did he was a shadow of his struggling former self. YOu're right about the timeline though. Kemp would be a fine pickup to partially replace Manny's production. He's probably the best the Sox could expect in return.

Given that none of us have the time or bankroll to watch each and every pitch that Michael Bowden throws, I would say the best we can do is "read" his statistics and watch what we can watch. Buchholz is still a great prospect, probably one of the best pitching prospects in baseball. Buchholz is 23, Ellsbury 24, Bowden 21. They're all very young, and for their age they are all very well developed. Yes, you're right, Hughes didn't produce this season like he could have. Does that mean that by the time he's 27 he won't be a top-notch pitcher? nope. It means that he didn't produce much this year before injury. If only there were some way of seeing how people really thought of these pitchers at some point in the past... oh yeah, there is. A thread created by (but not contributed to by) Gom, "Rank the pitchers" http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/10119-rank-pitchers.html Here's how I ranked them (12/10/07): Buchholz Hughes Lester Chamberlain Kennedy Delcarmen Hansen I think that's still a pretty good ranking, except for Hughes. It's not possible to know Hughes' ceiling but he's dropped in my mind. Chamberlain will have a good career, and Lester has developed into the pitcher that the Sox FO knew they had for the past few years. Buchholz has the best stuff of the group with 3 plus-plus pitches, though all three at the top (Chamberlain, Buchholz and Lester) have really, really good stuff. I'm not ready to make any final declarations about any of the three. I would likely have put Bowden between Chamberlain and Kennedy if you had offered his name at the time.

I'm just afraid that the Rox would need to get more MLB ready talent than that package, if at least in name recognition. Add Crisp or Ellsbury to the mix (weren't they interested in Crisp in the past?) and maybe Masterson and we'd be getting closer to something they may want for Holliday. If I were the Rockies I would have no interest in moving Holliday without a very nice package coming back. Ellsbury + Bowden + NYM prospect for Holliday? Add more to get Fuentes back? It's a huge package from BOS perspective, but getting Holliday at 28, getting rid of Manny and being able to solidify the lineup for another 7 years (with some reasonable Holliday extension) would be just what the Dr ordered in this situation. I'm never one for moving big pieces, especially not of Ellsbury and Bowden's caliber. However, I think the Sox did the right thing in moving Hanley and Anibel for Beckett and Lowell (Lowell as the throw-in) and the Sox are lucky enough to have Coco to play CF for the forseeable future, they don't need a "leadoff" hitter (a la Ellsbury), thought it would be preferable. Coco can hit at the bottom of the order with Pedroia and Youk at the top. If Coco gets injured they can move Drew to CF and play Moss in RF. It would be preferable to move Coco to Ellsbury, so perhaps throwing in Bard or Lars would mitigate that. I don't know how I feel about it, but it seems to me this would be a now and future move so it might be worth overpaying to get the guy they WANT, rather than a Pat Burrell or Adam Dunn, who would be nice but not actual replacements for Manny. Lineup would be: Pedroia Youkilis Ortiz Holliday Lowell Drew/Moss Varitek/Cash Lugo/Jed Coco Beckett Matsuzaka Lester Wakefield Buchholz Timlin Delcarmen Masterson Aardsma/Hansen Lopez Oki Fuentes Papelbon It would also open up some spots for Lin, Kalish or Reddick in the OF in the near future. Pipedream? Yes. However, now might be one of the few times the Sox would be willing to overpay to get his highly paid complaining ass out of the clubhouse.

Wouldn't he have the distinct advantage of being right-handed though? I would be more than happy to add another JD Drew type bat to the Sox lineup. I would expect Holliday to have a home field advantage in Fenway like he does in Coors (not as strong, but noticable like many other Sox players) and to take advantage of a strong lineup for some inflated numbers. I would expect 30/110 from Holliday in Boston, with Manny-esque OBP and AVG numbers. not bad. :dunno:

This is a long, speculative and kind of lame post. However, instead of complaining about whether or not Youkilis gets upset after a poor AB, let's look at some potential scenarios that could play out approaching the trade deadline. 1) Sox do nothing about Manny. Manny's contract and the lack of adequate replacements makes this one seem most likely. --Upside: If the Sox make the playoffs, then none of us will mind having Manny in the lineup come October. --Downside: Manny continues to make a mockery of the Sox FO and Tito and keeps the axe over our heads with the possibility that he'll quit on the team. He's never quit on them completely before, but that fear is not a place that the FO likes to be and the fans don't like it either. It's a weak moral position, but a strong baseball position assumin ghe continues to rake. 2) Sox move Manny for minor league talent. --Upside: increased flexibility for next year, get rid of the Manny and the sideshow that he produces, allows team to gel and know who the main pieces are moving forward. This is a young team with players like Ellsbury, Masterson, Buchholz all playing "in flux" right now. It can't help to have the one sure-fire HOF player on the team (the potential best role model) bitching and moaning about the people who will be their bosses for the next few years. Chemistry is overrated, no doubt, but it does matter for something--particularly when the talent exists to make a run with or without Manny (which I think it does). Sox also get prospects to move or build for the future. --downside: it puts the success of the 2008 Red Sox in jeopardy and will make the nation freak out (a la 2004 with Nomar's departure). No guaranteed success in 08. 3) Sox move Manny or another player to make a strong 08 run Upside: I would trust the FO to make the talent valuation and believe they would get something to help the team. Sox could improve their team and get someone to hold down the team in the future (Teixeira? Holliday? Dunn?). Downside: Teixeira--would require either trading Youkilis, or moving him to LF (if they are able to move Manny), would further limit their position flexibility and their defensive strength. Dunn--has no real spot unless Manny is moved Holliday--probably isn't available anyway at this time. Will cost a lot and will not be moved directly for Manny so multiple pieces will be needed. --Personally, I think the Sox may just want to overpay on both ends of this deal. If they know who they want tthen they shouldn't stop without getting him. If it means moving Manny for pennies on the dollar (and moving his money elsewhere) that's fine with me. The Sox have a deep MLB team, and a deep farm system. I wonder where guys like Lin, Carter, Anderson, Kalish, Moss, Reddick, etc., ultimately fit on this team with the MLB depth of corner OFs, corner IFs and the Sox current depth in CF. Would it make sense to deal whatever it takes to get a guy like Matt Holliday? Move Manny to the mets for some RP help and decent but not deal-breaking prospects, provide some loot for the rest of this year, and be thankful that he turned the Red Sox from an also-ran in the AL East to one of the most popular teams in Major League baseball worldwide. He'd probably still be a net-plus for the franchise, even if they didn't get completely even return. Swing those 'specs plus an abundence of other talent for Holliday and cement the middle of the lineup for the next 5 years or so. It's wishful thinking, but I would imagine that COL would have it's price for Holliday, even if he is one of the games best hitters and they would not be getting any piece of Manny. Ellsbury Pedroia Ortiz Holliday Lowell Drew Youkilis Varitek Lowry/Lugo If the Sox can not trade much for Miguel Tejada then maybe they should do that and hit him 8th. --------------------------------- There are a lot of possibilities, probably many that I listed aren't realistic. However, it's better than discussing whether or not YOukilis is a bitch. He's a good player, the starting 1B on the all star team with an OPS above 900 who won a GG. If the Sox feel that only a bat like Holliday will do, then they should cash in their "great farm system" chips and get the guy they want to replace Manny and not worry as much about what they get back for Manny specifically (perhaps longer term talent). Does that seem rash? Maybe, but Manny feels like a thorn in the Sox' side and he will be gone after this season no matter what at this rate. I'd love to see what others think are possibilities instead of complaining about Youkilis.

I'm torn. I don't think he adds much to the team at this point, but who would I rather have up in an important situation: Tejada or Lugo? Tejada any day of the week. That said, Lugo makes fewer outs than Tejada (per his OBP), but Tejada's OPS is considerably better (though nothing to brag about). His numbers this year are pretty weak so his price would need to be low. SS is one of the few spots in the lineup that the Sox can improve without dumping an already decent player and I really think they need to shake something up this year. Pedroia Youkilis Ortiz Manny (Drew should hit here) Lowell Tejada Varitek Ellsbury That's not a bad lineup... I don't know. Don't trade much, be willing to pay the money for this year and next, somehow swallow Lugo's contract for the next two years and I guess it'd be fine. I'm sure Tejada would like to come and I imagne he'd be a good fit in the clubhouse and on the field. Overall it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I actually thought the ump was just bad that game on both sides. I was fortunate enough to watch the game with my father, and both of us were complaining about the ump very early in the game. We even complained when the Yankees got screwed, because it just hurts the quality of the game between two teams with such plate patience.

Add to that the fact that the Sox are an offense built on an ungodly command of the strike-zone and you put them at a real disadvantage. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was really glad the umps in the playoffs didn't call "pretty pitches" for strikes, but actually stuck with the zone as it is supposed to be (for the most part). Every inch should count.

It's a tough situation. 900k doesn't seem like much, but it sets a precedent whereby every pretty good rookie or second year player can demand that the Sox owners pay them immediately. I'd give it to him and hope that another pitcher comes along with a career 1.62 ERA, .921 WHIP, and 193K/160.7 IP, with 72 SV in basically 2.5 seasons.

More people die of liver problems, drunk driving, etc., due to alcohol intoxication than from marijuana abuse. Marijuana abuse is clinically a much less significant issue than alcoholism, which can be fatal. Alcohol is regularly associated with stupid decision making and violent acts, marijuana is not so much. I'm not recommending that everyone start smoking, I'm just saying that in terms of its effect on families and communities alcohol can be devistating.

Who cares? A professional football player occasionally smoking a J isn't the end of the world. We should just legalize (or decriminalize) the stuff and be done with it. Alcohol is a much bigger social problem than potheads IMHO.

This is pretty much the sentiment that seems appropriate. I've never been a huge Colon fan, but if the Yankees made this move I would applaud them for it. Similar to Wade Miller, probably a higher upside--particularly since he's an experienced AL pitcher.

The premise of your argument is that the manager has some impact on a player's performance--hence he deserves blame if particular players don't do well. Granted. That same premise, it seems, absolutely must extend into the postseason. If we would blame Terry Francona for losses in the playoffs then we should also praise him for the absence of losses. In the playoffs, against the best teams in baseball, the Red Sox have been 22-9 with 2 World Series victories under Francona. That .710 WP is the highest of any manager in history with 20 or more decisions. He has two world series sweeps, parts of 7 and 8-game winning streaks. Seven postseason series, four sweeps. Of course Francona doesn't get all of the credit for these wins, but he would certainly get some blame if they had been 0 for 3 with 12 losses. We could look at how the most important new guys performed in 2004 and reach a different conclusion, right? His new players didn't excell in the playoffs this year, but they played better than they had throughout much of the season--Drew and Lugo did at least, and Matsuzaka really hung in there in some big games. The whole point was to win, and they did. Decisively in 2004 and 2008.

Hey das, I'm one of Ellsbury's biggest fans around here. I agree that he will be an upgrade over Crisp in a number of ways that make the whole team better. I want to see Ellsbury leading off, making pitchers nervous with Pedroia and Ortiz and Manny Ramirez at the plate. Yeah, there's something to be said for not taking the bat out of their hands, but he has enough speed to be successful more than 75% of the time and that means more runs and RBIs. I think he'll get on base better than Crisp as well. Defensively I think Ellsbury could match Crisp, in that both can be gold glove caliber CFs. That said, you're being WAY too hard on Crisp. I admit that he's been disappointing at times at the plate and his injuries haven't helped either. But he has played hard and held more than his end of the bargain defensively. I'm sure you've seen/heard all the defensive statistics (this is an old discussion), but look at his FRAA and FRAR last year. Apparently he had an enormous defensive impact last year, considerably better than most CFs, thus making up some of his offensive liabilities. He's fast, he's a switch hitter, he's affordable, he's young. Those are all things that other teams would want. I bet teams are interested but the Sox have only worked on a Crisp for ??? deal; it might take Crisp + ??? to get a good player. I don't think Crisp is good enough to warrant taking up a spot in the Sox order. He'd be a GREAT 4th OF on this team, but he doesn't want that I guess. I think he would be a really solid contributer, starting every day on a few teams in baseball and I wish him the best if he moves on.

Is there anyone who thinks this is a good deal? almost 3 million dollars more than the 2nd highest pitcher? 7 years? I really like Ellsbury!

Nice 'win' for the Sox. They played their hand perfectly and really came out on top here. The Yankees did offer a very nice package and the Sox counter offers were enough to keep that deal from happening. Meanwhile, we are now assured of getting to watch Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester and Clay Buchholz (along with Justin Masterson, Jed Lowrie, and Ryan Kalish) all develop as Red Sox for a bit longer.

I'm feeling uncharacteristically lazy and it has been quite around here: Someone sell me on Blanton as good enough to justify a spot in the Sox rotation.