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His self-importance cup runneth over already. My additional spit dripping in there doesn't make it any fuller. Hopefully it just dirties his cup.

You responded to him too, dumbass! I just put some sentences together. Mostly, I feel like talking about the offseason takes away from the pain of imagining the Sox season being over. I've been convinced for a long time this team isn't World Series good. In fact, I didn't think they would be that good if they got Halladay or Cliff Lee or anyone else at the deadline (aside from AG, perhaps). Now, my sights are focused on how this incarnation of the Sox can ultimately beat the Yankees.

One: Your 10mil is purely speculative and assumes that Teixeira would have taken less than they demanded from other teams to go to Boston or NY. I think he only would have taken less to go to NY and his dipshit smile when he plays with pinstripes on seems to back that up. Two: I thought the Yankees were paying A-Rod 30+M to be the face of the franchise... you said the face of the franchise. Two very expensive faces, both of them ugly and bloated.

Ugh, where to start. Doj: I think it is unlikely that the Sox trade Buchholz too. However, if in the process of moving him they end up getting HWSNBN and Adrian Gonzalez, then that's when he should be moved. His value really is very close to Hernandez's, except that Hernandez is the pitcher we all hope Buchholz will become and there isn't a lot of room for unknowns on this team. If they have to keep Buchholz that's no skin off my back. If they get the opportunity to trade him for one of the best talents in baseball, they should--assuming they've already addressed their need for an elite bat. If they haven't done that then they need to hold back IMO. ORS: If I were San Deigo I would probably start by asking for Buchholz. When I heard from the Sox that he isn't available, I would start by demanding (not asking) that Kelly be included in any deal. I would ask for Kelly, Bowden, either Doubront or Stolmy, Reddick or Kalish (whichever I thought was better... probably Reddick), and Rizzo or Lars Anderson. That seems like a really nice haul and a very cheap way to rebuild my club with good proven players. (Kelly, Bowden, Stolmy, Reddick and Rizzo?). I don't think it would hurt the Sox tremendously over the longrun. By the time Reddick's spot becomes important they could have Kalish or Lin or Westmoreland ready to go (in, say, 2-3 years). Kelly would be hard to lose but I think dealing him would be inevitable. Rizzo could go on to do great things, but Boston--unlike SD--cannot afford to let a major power position learn on the job. Stolmy and Bowden can both develop into very nice MLB pitchers, Bowden ready to start next season. They would get Reddick and Bowden immediately, Kelly and Rizzo in the next two years or so, and Stolmy as a promising prospect to have in the system. Again, that's a huge haul for a team that has a s***** farm system.

HWSNBN is younger and better though, and if Beckett might leave then it would be great insurance. I'm mostly with you, but I wouldn't be disappointed if he were acquired.

Especially if they don't have an obvious DH for the later half of that inevitably 8 year contract, then Pujols would have a nice place to land when he doesn't want to play in the field any more (or when his body doesn't want to take it any more) And 2004. I don't want to get my hopes up either. As I've said in numerous places, there really is part of me that would rather the Sox just lose to the Angels rather than to the Yankees. I'm sure that will change if the Sox get to a game 5 with the Angels and win, but they are an inferior team to the Yankees right now, and watching the Yankees beat the snot out of the Sox is one of those things I can't stand watching but can't stand looking away from either... car wreck.

Make them an offer they would be foolish to refuse. I think it would be easy to do with this crew of minor league talent. They may only have one blockbuster deal available to them with their minor leaguers at this point, assuming Buchholz no longer counts as one. If they were to try to pursue both Gonzo/Prince and HWSNBN then their system would be totally depleated. Of course, if they landed Gonzo without moving Buchholz (very possible, IMO) then i'd be okay with them moving Buchholz + + for HWSNBN.

If he's available, then we'll hear "Now batting, the designated hitter, Albert Pujols" coming out of Yankee stadium speakers for the foreseeable future. The less elite Beckett looks this year and next, the more likely he will be to resign. His presence on the team, his good clubhouse demeanor, etc., all warrant a nice salary... if he wants to be one of the best paid pitchers in baseball he'll go elsewhere. I don't think it is a problem. Although it hasn't produced a true franchise power hitter, it has developed an MVP 2B, a near-MVP 1B/3B, a near Cy Young SP (Lester), a SP with near Cy Young stuff (Buchholz), an all-star Closer and a CF/leadoff hitter who is young and likely coveted by many other teams. Most teams don't develop a franchise power hitter. Mostly they are drafted high and then sold to the highest bidder. The Sox (and their fans) should not be disappointed if the farm system doesn't produce that guy right away (it will though, in good time). If that 8-ball keeps leading to playoff appearances then all will be fine. 2009 isn't even over yet. I can definitely imagine a scenario where the Sox win one game, everyone says "the pressure is back on the Angels now" and we go into game 4 with the chance to win for a winner take all game 5. I'm not optimistic about the LCS, but if people need to get their jollys by not losing in the ALDS I think that's still possible.

We are getting nowhere. Doj, you have acknoweldged that you would like another marquee hitter to hit #4, and that while Bay probably isn't that guy, it will be hard to get that guy in any case because they are rare. Dipre, you have stated that there is a small but select group of hitters who fit that criteria for you, Bay isn't one of them. You both agree, the only area of disagreement is whether any of the hitters we covet are available. Doj, if you're arguing that Adrian Gonzalez is not a good enough option--even if it is to prove Dipre wrong--then I can tell you aren't really taking the discussion seriously. He's an elite young hitter with more power than anyone who is currently on the Sox. He's also LH. I feel like he or Prince Fielder are the best possible additions.

I don't expect them to, but they should. Ortiz might still be useful next year, but he's not the same hitter and he can't play any other positions. If he could play some 1B and allow other players (Drew, Bay, Martinez, Lowell) to get in at DH then it might be a different story. They have 1 year left with Ortiz. They work very hard not to have contracts to go on well-beyond the life of the player's top production, but even with that effort they have Ortiz and Lowell who could both be improved upon signed for next year. I don't see a hitter not named Mauer or Pujols who will be a better hitter than Holliday in the 2011 FA class. If that is the case, then they should get the best hitters whenever they come up, deal with the consequences and improve the team. If that means paying Lowell or Ortiz's whole salary and shipping them somewhere for prospects or with prospects for a good player then they should. They're going to be paying that salary no matter what one way or the other for one more year. After 2010 they have Ortiz, Lowell, Victor and Beckett all coming off the books. That's a lot of money being freed up. I feel that it is likely they resign Victor and less likely that they resign any of the rest of them. I don't know... I was just thinking about it yesterday. If Holliday goes elsewhere then the Sox will still be wondering what to do after 2010. If they get him and Bay at least they have the beginnings of a team structure (with Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Holliday, Drew and Bay all signed for 2011) to build around.

I think the Sox know a number that they could get Bay for and the deal could be done very quickly. I say, get that done, then make a hard run at Holliday. I'm not saying put your horse in both races, I"m saying get Bay done and then put your horse in Holliday's race.

Gonzalez is also only 27 and has increased HR production every season since he came in the league. He had 43 more PAs than Bay, yet struck out 53 fewer times this year. They both have holes, but Gonzalez is a different type of hitter (plus, he's LH).

There aren't a whole lot of guys who are like that. I think this conversation has run its course. I believe there is agreement that resigning Bay is a necessity, given the concerns about being able to sign Holliday and the Yankees ability to swoop in, get Bay, and then leave the Sox contending with lots of other teams for Holliday, who may or may not even be open to playing in Boston without being drastically overpaid. Dipre, I hear you saying that Holliday is your preferred hitter over Bay. I think I agree with you here, given track record, but I like Bay enough to want to just get him and be done with that soap opera. Given that, would you be opposed to going aggressively after both? In this case, they are "only" FAs, which means that all prospects stay in the system to bolster the MLB club. The FO operates on a pendulum of wanting to bolster the system vs. wanting to improve the big club. I think we saw with Teixeira, the runs at Gonzalez and HWSNBN, and the ultimate acquisition of Victor, that the FO is in "get talent for the MLB club" mode right now. I hope that is true in FA too.

It was pretty much a foregone conclusion since June that if the Sox made the playoffs as the WC they would be facing the Angels. I think it really sucks that teams who make the WC aren't able to have home field advantage if their record is better. The Sox may have tried to get HF against the Angels if this were the case. It's nice to get in as the Wild Card, but it is easy to get shafted if you're playing on the road against the Twins (which would happen if the Sox/Twins won), despite the Twins 7 fewer wins.

To be fair, I think "elite power" in the steroid/HGH era is a tough thing to be sure about. I'm willing to bet that Bay hasn't taken the stuff (he's a beanpole and hasn't had huge offensive spikes). There is a lot of benefit in loading the team with guys who don't juice, if at least some sort of moral victory. I don't know what elite power is without the steroids, but I'd be willing to bet Bay's #s have been close to what one could hope for. He's got a higher career SLG than a number of HOF players who would probably be seen as more suitable #4 hitters. **Perhaps the more interesting or tangential discussion would be: "What makes a good cleanup hitter?" Instead of simply looking at Bay's deficiencies, I would propose we try and make it tangible. Watching the games for most of the past few years, this year and the playoffs, I would say that the word "aggressiveness" comes to mind. It seems like Victor Martinez and David Ortiz are the closest this team has to other teams' players who seem like legit #4 hitters. Martinez swings if it is close, often fouls it off, but is up there ripping. Youkilis looks more defensive to me in his approach, though I can't fault him for his philosophy of hitting because he's a great hitter. I don't want him to leave, by any stretch, just to have his skills be more suited to his style. #5 or #6 or #3 seem more suitable (even #2). Perhaps it is a quality this FO likes, but I can't imagine that the masher I'm looking for would be up there looking for walks when he's the tying run. This Sox team is built with guys like that, which is great if you don't have 40+ HR power.

Like not taking signs from the 3B coach anymore? Hmmm... This isn't a matter of not trying, not having heart or not having the right mentality. It is a matter of baseball being a game where results have to happen on the field not in anyone's psyche before the series starts. The Angels are a VERY, VERY good team. Perhaps you're all taking them for granted because of the successes the Sox have had against them in the past, but this was the team that had the best record in the AL Last year (IIRC) and who has a large payroll and is in the playoffs every year. If the Red Sox had the Twins and won the first two games against a rookie pitcher and Blackburn, I don't think you would be so mad (Gov Bill) and all would seem rosie, just as it should; but it would be the same team! It's a fickle sport, but many of us felt that this Sox team was not well prepared to beat the Yankees and that the series with the Angels would be tough. Sorry if some of you had unrealistic expectations, but I don't think this loss was about leaving Beckett or Lester in too long, it is about the offense not producing when they need to, and this being a predictable problem given how they struggled on the road this season.

Bay IS a viable cleanup hitter, just probably not on a team this loaded and so close to being World Series caliber. It's two sides of the same coin and "viable" is a relative term. There are plenty of teams that would love to add Bay as a #4 hitter (even the Angels would, IMO).

So sign Bay quickly, try to get Holliday too, and then set the sights on a 1B or 3B or SS. If they land Holliday then plan to have Bay as the DH moving forward after 2010, and use Holliday and Bay as versions of 2009's Rocco Baldelli to shift around in the OF to supplement Drew. It may be a weird combination of players, but it would guard against injury (Lowell, Ortiz, Drew) and would give them a season to get their chips in order for the post Lowell, Ortiz and Martinez season in 2011. The Sox don't think so. They prefer Youkilis and it probably makes sense. His OBP is higher and he's one of the league's best ABs. Hell, if the Sox get someone who drives the s*** out of the ball they could have that person hit 5th or 6th with Bay and those guys would basically take the role of cleanup hitter. If Youk and Martinez get on base like they do then the team can delay the power a bit in the lineup and have the mashers 5-6-7.

Well, in the case of Bay we would be resigning him simply to keep the status quo. In this instance, that's a fine thing to do. Let's be honest about what we have: we have a team that is built around OBP and pitching. It is a very, very good team that has won 94-96 games all years but once since Theo took over. They will still be that if they keep things the same for next year. This was a team that was willing to shell out $20m + for Teixeira. Now the lack of that move has backfired into a probable NYY World Series, and there's no reason to think that will change next year without some moves. One thing I like about this FO is that they have a chip on their shoulder. They will want to do something to make this team a viable WS contender again. When others were complaining that the Sox 'wasted' their time pursuing Adrian Gonzalez and HWSNBN, I think it was just the type of aggressive thinking this team will need to get back into it. Bay and/or Holliday need to be a GIVEN moving forward, then they need to add someone else. That should be offseason priority #1.

For years the Yankees had players who weren't ideal #4 hitters scattered up and down their lineup. Giambi, Sheffield, Matsui, etc., We can argue about the affect it had on the team as a whole (payroll, personnell, etc.,) but we can't argue that the team had a poor offense or that they weren't explosive enough to win it all. They certainly were. The idea with Bay is to get selfish. It's the same thing they've already done with Drew. Drew is the highest paid player on the team and he hits 8th. The Sox brag about him hitting 8th. Doj is right in some respects, namely, that there's a risk that Bay's production won't be properly valued if we don't see him as a true #4 htiter. I think he could be a fine #4 hitter on other clubs. However, the Red Sox should get selfish. They should have their Bay and eat it too. He seems like a guy who could bat in the middle (see 5th, 6th or 7th) on an all-time great team. He's just not a 2010 cleanup hitter in the AL East. There should be better options for that.

i don't understand how anyone can argue against what Dipre is saying here. The Sox had Bay AND wanted Teixeira. Instead they added Victor Martinez--still a very nice pickup, but not the same offensive weapon. Martinez addresses the catching issue that will be coming up next offseason to. To me, they are still in the same place they were when they tried to sign Teix. To me the issues isn't about replacing Bay (or Holliday). It's about supplementing them with someone else. It is about replacing Lowell, or Varitek, or Lowrie/Gonzalez or perhaps even Ellsbury. I don't think I hear Dipre saying that Jason Bay sucks. I don't think he does, certainly. I thnk I just read him saying Bay's not a cleanup hitter, and I agree with that. Tito agrees with that, as does the FO. I want Bay on this team if he can hit 5 or 6 moving forward. Again, he was their most valuable offensive player this year by WARP. They just need to get Bay +. And that + can't 'just' be HWSNBN. Opposing pitchers know that if they can execute their pitches and throw them for strikes, the Red Sox (especially on the road) are vulnerable. No matter how good the Sox pitching is, it can't overcome a team that can't score runs on the road, it just can't. Sign Bay--he's more likely to sign, then get someone else to hit 4th, thus moving everyone into more favorable positions and, with the addition of Victor Martinez, give the Sox a really, really good lineup moving forward. Fielder is a FA after 2010, so it seems like the ideal time to swoop in and get him before the big bidding starts and when you can dangle a bit more than others. Gonzalez would take more than that because he's further off. I still imagine that Hanley can be had for the right price too, if not now eventually, and the Sox MUST have their eyes on that option. Hanley wouldn't be a true #4, but he would be a great addition becxause he would round out the offense and make the weakest hitter probably Mike Lowell. That's a very, very good lineup. I know people think Hanley is a pipedream, and he probably is for 2010, but he will be available at some point. He's not a Marlin for life.