Are you willing to wait?

[Orange Juiced]

Ok Sox fans. Another thread plus a TV show today prompted me to throw this out to everyone. How willing are you to wait for the Sox to once again become a premier team? If they go with more of a youth movement, the talent is there for this club to have a very exciting, mostly home-grown team in the mold of Tampa Bay. But in order to get there, they'd likely suffer through a couple of down years. But at least they'd be down years as we watch the kids grow up.

 

Are you willing to wait for that kind of scenario? Or are you of the mindset that, look, they can afford to go get guys like Grienke and Hamilton and they need to make the playoffs in 2013 - after all, they've missed the playoffs three straight years now?

 

What say you, Sox Nation? Willing to wait, or win-at-all-costs in 2013?

[VA Sox Fan]

I'm willing to wait.

[Dojji]

It doesn't matter if I'm willing or not. It's not like I can force the Sox to win the big one with my own personal impotent fury if it takes longer than I'd like. They're not going to be able to buy their way out of this one and I think they finally realize that themselves.

[a700hitter]

We have a choice?

[Dojji]

Well there's always the option to go root for another team or another sport I guess.

 

Not much of a choice for the likes of us though.

[Orange Juiced]

I know, people, that we don't have a choice. None of us make decisions for the Red Sox. Good grief...it's a topic to discuss as fans. Are you willing to be a patient fan, or not? That's the question.

[a700hitter]

Well there's always the option to go root for another team or another sport I guess.

 

Not much of a choice for the likes of us though.

You got that right.

[Thunder]

I'm willing to wait as long as there is a total reconstruction in the offseason. An article in Sports Illustrated says it all.

[Brennan]

Of course we have to wait. I just want them to show that they are moving in the right direction (ie not ruining solid relief pitchers to turn them into magic bean type starters) I think the biggest thing that needs rebuilding is the FO.

[Orange Juiced]

Of course we have to wait. I just want them to show that they are moving in the right direction (ie not ruining solid relief pitchers to turn them into magic bean type starters) I think the biggest thing that needs rebuilding is the FO.

 

I agree with the front office comment.

 

I do think (as is obvious by now) that Doubront and Morales have shown that they have ability. Their k/9 rates show they have dynamic stuff. Both hit a wall this season, with the number of innings pitched being beyond what they're used to.

 

I don't know that they will become terrific major-league starters. What I do know is:

 

(1) They have the potential to be solid.

(2) No team, really, can field aces in the 1-5 spots in the rotation. You have to have some back-end guys. And if they can find cheap back-end guys that also happen to be better than other teams' back-end guys, it's an advantage for the Red Sox, and it should be part of the long-term plan.

(3) Saving money on the back end of the rotation frees up money to be better-used elsewhere.

 

I'd rather spend a million on Morales as the #5 and use an extra $3 million on prying an ace away from someone, than spend $4 million on a #5 starter who, frankly, won't likely be any better than Morales is.

 

Not every move to improve the team has to be a blockbuster. If you make small improvements in a number of places, that ends up being pretty significant.

[a700hitter]

I agree with the front office comment.

 

I do think (as is obvious by now) that Doubront and Morales have shown that they have ability. Their k/9 rates show they have dynamic stuff. Both hit a wall this season, with the number of innings pitched being beyond what they're used to.

 

I don't know that they will become terrific major-league starters. What I do know is:

 

(1) They have the potential to be solid.

(2) No team, really, can field aces in the 1-5 spots in the rotation. You have to have some back-end guys. And if they can find cheap back-end guys that also happen to be better than other teams' back-end guys, it's an advantage for the Red Sox, and it should be part of the long-term plan.

(3) Saving money on the back end of the rotation frees up money to be better-used elsewhere.

 

I'd rather spend a million on Morales as the #5 and use an extra $3 million on prying an ace away from someone, than spend $4 million on a #5 starter who, frankly, won't likely be any better than Morales is.

 

Not every move to improve the team has to be a blockbuster. If you make small improvements in a number of places, that ends up being pretty significant.

We already have these guys. We stunk with them. I don't expect that they will every be a lot better than they have been. They are #5's. Neither is a #4 on a winning team. They are 5 inning pitchers who will tax the pen 2 out of every 5 games, so the top 3 guys would have to go deep into games on a regular basis. Lester suffers from high pitch counts and he doesn't work deep into games anywhere often enough. While we don't need aces 1-5 (it should be pointed out that we have none), it helps if the guys at the bottom can eat innings. Doubs and Morales are not innings eaters.

[Brennan]

That's more realistic. Count on Morales and Doubrant as a #4 and #5 next year and see if they can handle it. We need some new talent evaluation and conditioning staff and a new manager and GM wouldn't hurt either.

[Orange Juiced]

That's more realistic. Count on Morales and Doubrant as a #4 and #5 next year and see if they can handle it. We need some new talent evaluation and conditioning staff and a new manager and GM wouldn't hurt either.

 

Um.....that's all I've been saying. You seem to be confusing what I actually said with what you think I said.

[Orange Juiced]

We already have these guys. We stunk with them. I don't expect that they will every be a lot better than they have been. They are #5's. Neither is a #4 on a winning team. They are 5 inning pitchers who will tax the pen 2 out of every 5 games, so the top 3 guys would have to go deep into games on a regular basis. Lester suffers from high pitch counts and he doesn't work deep into games anywhere often enough. While we don't need aces 1-5 (it should be pointed out that we have none), it helps if the guys at the bottom can eat innings. Doubs and Morales are not innings eaters.

 

We didn't stink because we had Morales and Doubront. Every team has questionable guys at #4 and #5. The division-leading Yankees throw out freaking Freddy (5.09 era) Garcia and Ivan (4.92 era) Nova every trip through the rotation.

 

The Red Sox stunk because Josh Beckett and Jon Lester were horrendous, they had massive injuries, and the offense was terribly inconsistent. I'm sure the clubhouse drama didn't exactly help either.

 

If Beckett and Lester were the 2010 Beckett and Lester, the Red Sox would have been in the playoffs as of the trading deadline.

[a700hitter]

We didn't stink because we had Morales and Doubront. Every team has questionable guys at #4 and #5. The division-leading Yankees throw out freaking Freddy (5.09 era) Garcia and Ivan (4.92 era) Nova every trip through the rotation.

 

The Red Sox stunk because Josh Beckett and Jon Lester were horrendous, they had massive injuries, and the offense was terribly inconsistent. I'm sure the clubhouse drama didn't exactly help either.

 

If Beckett and Lester were the 2010 Beckett and Lester, the Red Sox would have been in the playoffs as of the trading deadline.

I didn't say that we stunk because of them. There were plenty of reasons why we stunk. I said that we stunk with them. They are not part of the answer.

[Orange Juiced]

I didn't say that we stunk because of them. There were plenty of reasons why we stunk. I said that we stunk with them. They are not part of the answer.

 

We also stunk with Pedroia, Middlebrooks, Ortiz, Ellsbury, and Buchholz. Are they also not part of the answer?

 

The answer has to be wide-ranging. The Red Sox are not going to have five aces. Again, the Yankees are in first place and have used Freddy Garcia ($4 mil for 5.09) and Ivan Nova in their 4 and 5 spots in the rotation. The White Sox have Danks (5.70), Humber (6.50), and Floyd (4.55) at the back of their rotation. The Rangers throw out Feldman ($6.5 mil for 4.97) every fifth day. These are all division leaders. So you look at the entire picture and figure out how you can improve. One of the places where they can use a low-cost, but effective, person is in the #5 slot in the rotation. If they can get above average performance, at just a million bucks a year (Morales made just $850k this year), in the #5 spot in the rotation, that's a significant advantage, and it would be part of the solution.

[a700hitter]

We also stunk with Pedroia, Middlebrooks, Ortiz, Ellsbury, and Buchholz. Are they also not part of the answer?

They are really good players, top performers with big potential. Morales and Doubs don't have big potential. They have potential to be the #5 pitcher on a good team.

 

If Doubront and Morales are both in the starting rotation to start next season or any season, we will be rooting for a 4th place team. If you disagree, fine. Sig it if you want. Be forewarned that people who sig me with the intent if ridiculing me look like asses in the end.

[Dojji]

I disagree with you entirely. Both Morales and Doubront have shown that they have significant potential as lefthanded pitchers who can miss bats. Their problem isn't a lack of potential, their problem is that they aren't consistent. Few developing players are. The difference is that the clock is ticking when it comes to Morales. Doubront could shock us all in 2-3 years and it would be entirely in character.

 

I want guaranteed all stars in all 25 positions too. Unlike some of the rest of us I am able to recognize that just because you don't have that, doesn't mean you "stink." Having Doubront and Morales around is better than not having them. If you're fixated on their presence on the roster as in any sense a negative to this team, you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

Regardless of any other consideration, knocking Felix Doubront for not dominating hitters in his rookie season playing for a bad team is laughably absurd.

[a700hitter]

I disagree with you entirely. Both Morales and Doubront have shown that they have significant potential as lefthanded pitchers who can miss bats. Their problem isn't a lack of potential, their problem is that they aren't consistent. Few developing players are. The difference is that the clock is ticking when it comes to Morales. Doubront could shock us all in 2-3 years and it would be entirely in character.

 

I want guaranteed all stars in all 25 positions too. Unlike some of the rest of us I am able to recognize that just because you don't have that, doesn't mean you "stink." Having Doubront and Morales around is better than not having them. If you're fixated on their presence on the roster as in any sense a negative to this team, you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

Regardless of any other consideration, knocking Felix Doubront for not dominating hitters in his rookie season playing for a bad team is laughably absurd.

I'm not knocking Doubront. He's a bottom of the rotation pitcher. I don't see him have a ceiling any higher than that. That's not a knock on him. I think that is where most baseball people would project him. I disagree with you if you think either are top of the rotation type guys.

[Orange Juiced]

Felix Doubront is just the kind of guy that you let go because you think he's no good, and in 3 years he's pitching for the Diamondbacks, making $900 k, winning 15 games and putting up an era in the low 3's, striking out 180 hitters a year with his 95-mph fastball and plus curve (which you knew he had when he was on your team), both of which he has learned how to command consistently.

 

And then you ask, why can't the Sox develop guys like this? When, in fact, they could have, if they were just patient with them.

 

Not saying it will turn out that way, but I could see it happening.

[a700hitter]

Felix Doubront is just the kind of guy that you let go because you think he's no good, and in 3 years he's pitching for the Diamondbacks, making $900 k, winning 15 games and putting up an era in the low 3's, striking out 180 hitters a year with his 95-mph fastball and plus curve, both of which he has learned how to command consistently.

 

And then you ask, why can't the Sox develop guys like this? When, in fact, they could have, if they were just patient with them.

 

Not saying it will turn out that way, but I could see it happening.

Who is talking about letting him go?

[Orange Juiced]

Who is talking about letting him go?

 

Nobody. Who said he's going to become an ace?

 

(and don't say that I just did above, because I didn't. I suggested that he fits the profile, with his natural stuff, of a guy that, if he "gets it", could really excel. no guarantee of that happening)

[a700hitter]

Nobody. Who said he's going to become an ace?

 

(and don't say that I just did above, because I didn't. I suggested that he fits the profile, with his natural stuff, of a guy that, if he "gets it", could really excel. no guarantee of that happening)

I never put those words in your mouth. I would have Morales and Doubs fight it out for the last rotation spot with Lackey. The losers become depth options and long relievers. You think they should both be in the rotation. I disagree. One of them makes it. The other is a depth option. I'm not saying to get rid of either of them, and I am not saying that you think they are aces. I've had enough discussion of these two guys. They are not a big issue either way.

[Orange Juiced]

Okie dokie.

[SouthieFanatic]

I've been waiting since this season began. Let's be honest did anyone really think we had a WS caliber team at the beginning of the season? Most of you should say "No". I havent been around as long as some of you as in terms of age i'm sure, but I can say with 100% certainty that this team was one of the most unlikeable teams i've seen. Absolutely no personality mixed with the fact they just couldn't come together this season. So i'll wait a little longer personally. If they go out and talk to Hamilton or Greinke or Shields or whoever. It will be a big mistake IMO

[Brennan]

I've been waiting since this season began. Let's be honest did anyone really think we had a WS caliber team at the beginning of the season? Most of you should say "No". I havent been around as long as some of you as in terms of age i'm sure, but I can say with 100% certainty that this team was one of the most unlikeable teams i've seen. Absolutely no personality mixed with the fact they just couldn't come together this season. So i'll wait a little longer personally. If they go out and talk to Hamilton or Greinke or Shields or whoever. It will be a big mistake IMO

 

 

 

 

I agree that they should avoid Hamilton like the plague but it wouldn't hurt to start courting a few top of the rotation pitchers soon. Even if there was an ace who suddenly became obtainable and wanted market value this offseason. If we have to build a contender over the next few years using ONLY the pieces we have now then there won't be much good baseball to watch for the next few seasons. I agree with 700 that we should let Morales, Doubrant and Lackey fight it out for #5 and I say we give Bucky and Lester one more season to see if they can regain what they once had. Other than that, clean f***ing house and collect high end pitching prospects.

[example1]

We have a choice?

 

I don't think there's much of a choice. We have to wait if they are going to do it right.

[a700hitter]

I don't think there's much of a choice. We have to wait if they are going to do it right.

And if they don't do it right, we don't have to wait?

[SouthieFanatic]

I agree that they should avoid Hamilton like the plague but it wouldn't hurt to start courting a few top of the rotation pitchers soon. Even if there was an ace who suddenly became obtainable and wanted market value this offseason. If we have to build a contender over the next few years using ONLY the pieces we have now then there won't be much good baseball to watch for the next few seasons. I agree with 700 that we should let Morales, Doubrant and Lackey fight it out for #5 and I say we give Bucky and Lester one more season to see if they can regain what they once had. Other than that, clean f***ing house and collect high end pitching prospects.

 

I wouldn't even give Lackey another chance, but with his contract we may be stuck for awhile.

[Orange Juiced]

I agree that they should avoid Hamilton like the plague but it wouldn't hurt to start courting a few top of the rotation pitchers soon. Even if there was an ace who suddenly became obtainable and wanted market value this offseason. If we have to build a contender over the next few years using ONLY the pieces we have now then there won't be much good baseball to watch for the next few seasons. I agree with 700 that we should let Morales, Doubrant and Lackey fight it out for #5 and I say we give Bucky and Lester one more season to see if they can regain what they once had. Other than that, clean f***ing house and collect high end pitching prospects.

 

Since May 11, Clay Buchholz has put up this line:

 

18 g, 126.1 ip (7.0/g), 3.28 era, 1.12 whip

 

I'd say the only real thing to worry about with him is his health. He's certainly pitching quite well.