8/17 @ Yankees

[soxnationguy]

You must have a great life. Making multiple accounts just to troll on a Red Sox forum' date=' lol what a loser.[/quote']

 

 

yea and it will be a great day when the season is over and you are sitting on your ass watching the yankees in the playoffs. dumb f***.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png

[Youk Of The Nation]

Test

[The Village Idiot]

timmylowell: Trolling on a Sox message board that anyone can sign onto, pretty much, during a losing Red Sox season. A manly, character-laden thing to do! What a macho, macho man!

 

But back to our regularly scheduled program, there's this: what we're witnessing this year, friends, is what happens when a franchise makes some key mistakes from which it will hopefully learn. All of which occurred due to a slight but pivotal shift in organizational philosophy.

 

It is as simple as that.

 

I repeat: all of which occurred due to a slight but pivotal shift in organizational philosophy.

 

In case we need to remind ourselves, here's what happened.

 

(1) 2007: Sox are the dominant team in the A.L. East, winning the division and the World Series. Supreme drafting in prior years cultivated young, cost-controlled pitching and positional players. The franchise didn't sign overpriced free agents in the two years prior; it believed in its core. (And don't talk to me about Drew, who was an OBP machine and the best right fielder the Sox had, defensively, since Dwight Evans. And don't talk to me about Lugo, who was Theo's only bad signing of that several year period between 04 and '07. We needed a shortstop. He had all the tools, in Tampa, that you want in that position. It was a logical move when it was made. Everyone's allowed one blunder or two. This wasn't one of Theo's biggies; the Sox won the World Series Lugo's first year with the team.)

 

(2) 2008: One game away from reaching the World Series. ONE GAME AWAY. Same young, talented, core team intact. Strong pitching performances from key starters. Clawed back in the ALCS during and after a seemingly impossible victory against the Rays, only to lose Game 7 with Lester on the mound. Gotta tip your cap to the Rays. It was their year, it wasn't ours.

 

(3) 2009: Same core group intact, for the most part. It was the beginning of the injury string of events, and it was, I believe, a tipping point factor in what we saw in the time period that followed: the reaching for something to keep the fans from shirking away. The need to keep the team interesting and competitive on the field. Also worthwhile to note that this was the year the Yankees won the World Series. And in that off-season, they felt the need to make at least some big move, to make any move. And that brought us one...Mr. John Lackey.

 

(4) 2010: We can't POSSIBLY ever have/sustain injuries in '10 that were to the degree that they were in '09, could we? Nah! It'll never happen. But then the weekend of the Giants series in San Fran, the s*** hits the San Fan. Pedroia injured, Youkilis injured thereafter, I mean Jesus -- EVERYONE was injured that season. Everyone! Ellsbury, who got slammed by Mr. Beltre and was on the shelve for months. Drew and his time on the shelf. Pedey and the foot screw. And on and on and on.

 

THE POINT, the 2010-2011 off-season, to me, is where the organizational philosophy shifted.

 

They stopped believing in their past strategy. The grip of the prior two years' injury bugs were strong. "How can we do something to remain competitive and keep people in the seats and potentially shirk this off?" I think the owners asked themselves. How do we get this Gonzalez guy with the Padres, because Beltre could be a one-year, one-hit wonder? We can't sign V-Mart, because he'll go to the highest bidder and by George, we can't sign them all. And we can't let the Yankees dominate every year's free agent market! We have to compete! The Yanks may get Crawford. Do we need a Crawford though? What do you mean? He's always killed us. Hard worker, good Fenway numbers, fast and pushes the envelope when on base! Answer: yes, we have to keep the wheels churning. Who cares if they're expensive free agents? Let's go with our instincts instead.

 

NEVER go with your instincts and marketing needs when making free agent acquisition decisons.

 

2011: First place for much of the year, except for when it counted most. Thus, the nuclear fallout last September, leading to...

 

2012:

(1) Biggest Sox mistake #1: Hiring Bobby Valentine for Boston. Total reactionary move. Poor fit for the city, ballclub, players, FO's philosophy. With all due respect, Bobby, you were just never the right fit, period, end of story. Anyone with any questions, please research the pre-2012 Bobby Valentine. The facts speak for themselves.

(2) Big mistake #2: Is connected to #1...letting BOTH Theo and Tito go their different ways/directions in the same year. Just way too much change all at once, particularly with Lucchino overriding Cherington's original managerial choice, which resulted in a Valentine coming in at all.

(3) The mess with Youk. Unnecessary, premature move; Middlebrooks has struggled off and on. You never bet on a rookie's potential success, and you never unload a proven commodity too soon.

 

The fact is this: The BEST thing that can happen to the Sox that I love is for them to finish out the year poorly. Because then, the owners will have no choice but to fire Valentine and make some key roster moves. I think that they move three key players in exchange for value: Ellsbury, Crawford and Ross. THAT will give them the prospects and pitching they need, and it will keep the core of the rest of the team intact. The Sox farm system is strong. The owners have made mistakes, but they'll learn from them. The FO is smart and strong. Much of the team is strong too.

 

But they've wasted money, then need to be bold. They need value in return from so of the value they must unload.

 

It's always darkest before the dawn. This too shall pass. But I do think the owners need to make some big, bold decisions, and what's more, losses at this stage are better for the long-term longevity and success of the team than the team coming storming back between now and the playoffs.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Okay, so I can post, but just not a long post?

[Youk Of The Nation]

Okay, weird.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You mean we might have to endure three straight seasons of not making the playoffs?

 

OH THE HUMANITY. FIRE THEM ALL.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Okay, this is infuriating. I had a perfectly crafted reply, and when I try to post it, it tells me I can't post in this thread. I thought it was the length...nope, though I can make other posts. I thought it was that I couldn't paste the comment into the box...nope. Retyped it. I can post this, and almost anything else, apparently, but I try to post my insult and I get an error. f***.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Goddamnit.

[jacksonianmarch]

I would say something about how stupid you are' date=' or maybe go the obvious route and insult the Yankees, but I'm afraid if I say anything unkind toward you, your mother might bite down in anger and castrate me. Not only would it ruin my plans to ejaculate directly in her eye, the resulting mess might kill the mood for the next thirty or forty guys.[/quote']

 

This is gold, lol.

[jacksonianmarch]

As long as they don't pay Ross the ridiculous money some folks were talking about earlier this year, he is a good keep for the Sox.

 

I would predict that if kept for a similar length of time, Ross, even with his limitations, will get more significant hits...meaning game changing hits than some of these overpriced guys who will pad their numbers at meaningless times in meaningless contests but will not do much more than that.

 

Ross is on pace for his best career season. The OF market was really 2 guys after Victorino fell off the map in Melky and Hamilton. With Melky on the juice and Hamilton looking for a payroll altering pay day, Ross is gonna be in high demand. I think he could definitely get a Willingham type contract, 3 yrs $21 mil on the open market. And if the team isnt the Red Sox, then he's gonna crap out

[The Village Idiot]

You mean we might have to endure three straight seasons of not making the playoffs?

 

OH THE HUMANITY. FIRE THEM ALL.

 

Are you saying that the Sox don't need to do anything and will be fine next year? I think it's extremely clear, based on the results this year, that the Sox ownership overreacted when they pushed Francona out of town last year after just ONE bad month of baseball, as opposed to the past 4.5 months of bad baseball we've seen under Valentine's leadership this year. He's said the wrong things to the media about several key players at key times, adding unnecessary fuel to the fire in a town where the media pounces on everything. How often under Tito, over an 8-year period, did you hear any grumblings that there were clubhouse chemistry problems? Not until after last year's collapse, which, again, was based on one bad month of play during September. Valentine causes a stir wherever he goes. It's what he does. Look at his history. That approach from a manager is not the best thing for a veteran team, particularly a veteran team that had a once in a lifetime manager, with a track record of success, like a Tito. Valentine may have worked in a market with a young team and a market where they needed to drum up interest in baseball -- like a Miami -- but a Boston? This was the ownership group's mistake, and it should have puzzled any fan who was seriously looking at the strengths and the flaws of the Boston Red Sox's team. I was flabbergasted when they selected Valentine. Flabbergasted.

 

Also, you can talk about injuries all you want this year, but they're not everything. Look at how the Sox finished in other years they suffered injuries relative to this year. And look at how other teams with just as many injuries, or more, than the Sox have had this year, have fared (the Yankees, for instance).

 

I don't think Valentine is all to blame for this year, just as Tito wasn't the one to blame entirely for last September's poor baseball, but the manager's role is certainly an important factor. Maybe Tito was done and he shouldn't have stayed, but in that case, you just don't hire the polar opposite of a Tito to come in and...do what? Change the clubhouse culture? Why? A culture that had largely worked fine and resulted in success for the better part of the 8 years prior? It just didn't make sense to throw the baby out with the bath water. That's what the owners did. Now, we're seeing the consequences of that.

 

I think if anyone's to blame for the slight shift in philosophy that resulted in the too expensive contracts the Sox are now saddled with, that it basically comes down to Theo and the ownership group going slightly off-course during Theo's last couple of years in town, and the ownership's knee-jerk reaction to hire a Valentine. Also, at this stage, it's pretty clear that they overestimated what their dynamic duo of Lester/Beckett could jointly achieve in this, which should be one of both of their prime years pitching, and Cherington also made a bad move in picking up a Bailey who has historically been an injured pitcher. It was really a shock when Bailey wasn't available to start the year as closer? The guy's spent his career injured.

 

Amazing what a few big mistakes can result in. This will turn around eventually, but the best thing that could happen now is for the Sox to sputter to the finish, for Valentine to resign or get fired at the end of the year (he'll never resign though), for the Sox to try to get some deep pitching talent by unloading Ellsbury for value in return, and for the Sox to give Lavarnway and consider trading Salty to also get some more value in return.

 

They need to cut Valentine loose; add some talent to the pitching staff and see what a healthy Buch, Lester, Lackey can do; let Crawford get the surgery he needs NOW, not waiting any longer; maybe see if they can unload Beckett who's struggled so mightily, and move forward. I think the leadership change -- ditching Valentine -- is going to be inevitable and will make a huge difference.

 

By the way, I came into this season really trying to and wanting to give Valentine a chance. I was not a Valentine hater. But I can't objectively look at what this guy has done, and the moves he's made on the mound and with the starters and with the pen, and the things/missteps he's made on camera, and say he's been a good choice. He really hasn't.

[The Village Idiot]

By the way, I made a few mistakes in my post late last night. Late night out and a tough week. I know they only have Ross for one year, so they can't/won't "move him," they'll either sign him or not sign him. And I definitely oversimplified the FO's analysis of whether or not to sign FAs, which of course is an in-depth process...although it will never make sense to me why they took on the Crawford contract: another lefty, in the least important outfield position in Fenway, who is a free-swinger, who is past the prime of his career. It was the kind of signing the Sox would have NEVER done a few years before, I didn't get it. At least Lackey made sense to me; add another quality starter, who, as much as people discriminate against him for his face and his soundbites to the media (which are empty most of the time), is known in baseball to be a great clubhouse/team guy, as is Josh Beckett.

 

Anyway, apologies for my lack of attention to detail before.

[3rdManOut]

@The Village Idiot,

Your recape of the last couple of years for this organization is probably the best description of why the Sox are in the state they are today. I forgot that Lackey came to us in '09. Damn its been that long? Anyway good job on that, put that way everything does make sense. (well not really but you know what I mean.)

[jung]

Crawford was a horrible, horrible signing....the problem with Lackey is that much like Crawford and Agons, he had a known injury issue at the time of the signing.....like Crawford an elbow issue that was likely to be getting worse whereas in Agons case a shoulder that while operated on was still on the mend. All three players got all the money with Crawford getting all the money+++++.

 

Not only did Lackey get all the money but he is a contact pitcher coming to the worst division for a contact pitcher. If I were the Sox I would have looked at other top rated pitchers in that FA season and gone with someone that was more of a power pitcher in spite of the fact that Lackey was at the top of the list for pitchers in his FA season. If there were none available....I would not have offered Lackey all the money. That probably means I would not have been able to sign him....maybe....who knows. The Sox offered Crawford so much money that nobody else was even in the running. We really no longer know what anybody would have signed these guys for since the Sox have blown their contracts all out of proportion. At any rate, if we did not sign Lackey because somebody else offered him more money would we be fine with that or not? I sure as well would be fine with that.

 

Did not like either the Crawford signing or the Lackey signing at the times they were made. I was OK with the Agons signing at the time other than concern for how that shoulder would work out. To be honest I very likely would not have signed any of the three because I would have allowed my concerns for their injury status to be an issue in what I offered. I would not have made Crawford any offer at all. I would have offered Lackey less money and would have passed eventually unless I was desperate for his arm. I would love to have known if AGons could have been signed for less. Obviously we will never know.

 

Crawford is obviously doing pretty well these days but it is still in my view a horrible signing. AGons is doing pretty well although he now has recovered complete plate coverage and is hitting to all fields and still is not anywhere close to the power hitter we thought we were getting even with that recent mini-spurt of Agons power. We have no idea what the hell Lackey is or will be at this point.

 

I think there are reasons other than baseball reasons why the Sox insisted on making these three signings.

 

Also if there is one thing evidenced by Carl Crawford it is the complete joke that the Gold Glove award has become. Crawford can be best described as being on safari in left field.....without a compass.....or a guide.

[3rdManOut]

Do you guys think it made a difference that Lackey was the pitcher that beat us in '08 in game 7 to knock us out of the playoffs to get to the world series, and thats why the FO signed him?

[Youk Of The Nation]

Do you guys think it made a difference that Lackey was the pitcher that beat us in '08 in game 7 to knock us out of the playoffs to get to the world series' date=' and thats why the FO signed him?[/quote']

 

Probably not, since in 2008 the Sox were beaten by Tampa, who went to the World Series.

[3rdManOut]

Probably not' date=' since in 2008 the Sox were beaten by Tampa, who went to the World Series.[/quote']

 

My bad, for some reason I thought that Lackey and the Angels had beat us. I better check up on my history again. Sorry