2012 Catch-All Trade Deadline Thread

[SoxFanForsyth]

Hamels also has a better K:BB ratio, a better ERA+, a lower WHIP, he's just a much better pitcher.

[SoxFanForsyth]

What would they do with Lars when they have Rizzo?

 

Lars can play OF, but that was more of a suggestion as to the level of player, not necessarily Lars himself.

[a700hitter]

Lars can play OF' date=' but that was more of a suggestion as to the level of player, not necessarily Lars himself.[/quote']Has he played well enough in the OF that a major league team would consider him for their OF?

[SoxFanForsyth]

And remember, Pumpsie. Shields has had ONE good season. Hamels has won a WS MVP, has been in the Cy voting twice, and has a career 3.09 ERA in the post season.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Has he played well enough in the OF that a major league team would consider him for their OF?

 

Not sure about his defense. But he's hitting .273/.397/.495 in AAA right now. That's pretty damn solid, especially that OBP.

 

He'd be a great 2 hole hitter for a team like the Cubs.

[jung]

Garza for Bard+Lars sounds to good to be true. There must be a hitch.

 

"Lets see, I will take your head case, failed starter that cannot recover his velo even at reduced work load plus this other guy who looks like he will always be this other guy for my front line starter who might be underperforming some but isn't getting much run support here and might also be suffering from being away from the highly competitive environment of the AL East (who knows really).

 

Anyway I am good with that deal and don't think I would have to look back worried about where Bard and Lars ended up.

[FredLynn]

Hamels, over the past 3 years (2010 - 2012), has thrown 500 IP to a 3.00 ERA.

 

Shields, over the past 3 years (2010-2012), has thrown 544 IP to a 3.85 ERA.

 

Do you really think that Hamels ERA is going to baloon by around 30% by switching leagues?!? I think that's crazy.

 

Hamels is clearly the better pitcher. That's not even close.

 

I am not contesting the fact that Hamels is better. His ERA will go up, probably by somewhat more than .25 because he is playing in the AL and in the ALE. And yes, the park does have something to do with it as well, thought its not the most important factor. I would rather have Hamels; on the other hand, I would rather have both Hamels and Shields. I think Shields is a FA too.

[FredLynn]

Garza for Bard+Lars sounds to good to be true. There must be a hitch.

 

"Lets see, I will take your head case, failed starter that cannot recover his velo even at reduced work load plus this other guy who looks like he will always be this other guy for my front line starter who might be underperforming some but isn't getting much run support here and might also be suffering from being away from the highly competitive environment of the AL East (who knows really).

 

Anyway I am good with that deal and don't think I would have to look back worried about where Bard and Lars ended up.

 

Only if we can sign Garza to a 3-4 year deal. No one and a half year rentals for anyone of value.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I am not contesting the fact that Hamels is better. His ERA will go up' date=' probably by somewhat more than .25 because he is playing in the AL and in the ALE. And yes, the park does have something to do with it as well, thought its not the most important factor. I would rather have Hamels; on the other hand, I would rather have both Hamels and Shields. I think Shields is a FA too.[/quote']

 

I just think Hamels is significantly better than Shields, whereas you think they're close. Fair enough, though.

 

I still think Lester and Price are a wash (Lester has a better ERA+, but Price is performing better right now).

 

Age wasn't a consideration going forward, so I still take Beckett over Hellickson.

 

Moore is going to be good, but so is Buchholz. Buchholz has shown that he can be good, and he's been outstanding his past few starts.

 

Finally - the Rays don't have much of a 5th man. The Sox have Doubront, that's an obvious advantage to the Sox.

 

Like I said - I take the Sox rotation with Hamels in it over the Rays rotation.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Here's a question.

 

If the Sox go out and trade for Garza, who gets booted from the rotation next year? Surely they dish one of Beckett or Lackey (or both).

 

And second - If they trade for Garza, doesn't that virtually eliminate them from the Cole Hamels running? And isn't a true "ace" exactly what this team needs? Garza doesn't provide this team a true "ace" but he does give them a very good chance to make a deep run into October.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if they could trade for Garza, ship Beckett and Lackey out, and sign Hamels? One can dream.

[jung]

I assume you are talkin' about Hamels next year SFF. If so then I don't think signing Garza takes them out of the running for a top of the rotation guy next year. Not sure who it will be cause I think there might be a couple to look at.

 

I do think that either Beckett or Lackey or both are OUTTA' HERE next year.

 

Beckett has pitched solidly this year to date. However injury concerns are starting to creep back in and if I had a choice I would not want either Lackey or Beckett around my young ballplayers. It does not appear to me that Beckett wants to be here and we should just accommodate him. I don't think he will make his 5/5 thing an issue as long as we don't want to pack him off to the Alaska Polar Bears or something like that.

 

Even just the last couple days he has been up to his usual standards for ********. Beckett told the media he would give them some time to discuss his DL stint and then disappeared on them. So Josh-like. Really the entire season hinges on 1,2 and 3 in the rotation. Josh has been the most consistent of them although Buch is coming on. Josh goes on the DL....tells the media he will hold a presser and then hits the road. Even just a pandering to the fans comment like "going to try to get back on the mound as soon as I can" comment would really have been worthwhile for the fans that foot the bill and live and die with this team and as a means of doing some repair work on Beckett's image around here. Then again, why should Josh care. Guess he doesn't care. Thanks as usual Josh...just hope you didn't miss it to make a tee time.

 

As for Lackey...I would send Lackey off to the Siberian Tundra Cats if I could.

[Spitball]

If other contenders sit back and let the Red Sox get Garza for Bard and Anderson, there will be some general managers fired.

 

If all Epstein and Hoyer can get for Garza is Bard and Anderson, then they will be cheating their organization.

 

They simply have to rebuild that organization's farm system. They are not trying to turn this season around or even seriously compete next year. They are trying to rebuild with many good young prospects like the prospects they traded for Garza.

 

Garza is a better pitcher now than he was when the Cubs sent the Rays their best prospects in starting pitcher Chris Archer, catcher Robinson Chirinos, shortstop Hak-Ju Lee, and outfielder Brandon Guyer. How can they settle for less than that now?

[SoxFanForsyth]

If other contenders sit back and let the Red Sox get Garza for Bard and Anderson, there will be some general managers fired.

 

If all Epstein and Hoyer can get for Garza is Bard and Anderson, then they will be cheating their organization.

 

They simply have to rebuild that organization's farm system. They are not trying to turn this season around or even seriously compete next year. They are trying to rebuild with many good young prospects like the prospects they traded for Garza.

 

Garza is a better pitcher now than he was when the Cubs sent the Rays their best prospects in starting pitcher Chris Archer, catcher Robinson Chirinos, shortstop Hak-Ju Lee, and outfielder Brandon Guyer. How can they settle for less than that now?

 

Team control man. Team control. I have said it 100 times. He's under control for 1.5 years. Then whoever acquires him has to pony up a long term deal. When the Cubs acquired Garza, he had 3 years left. How can you justify getting equal return with half of his control left? That's now how it works. The Cubs didn't just get a free rental for 1.5 years. It doesn't work that way.

 

Bard is under team control until 2016, and is an elite relief pitcher. He could easily be the closer of the future for the Cubs. Hell, he was supposed to be the closer of the future for the Sox.

 

Maybe the add-on player in Lars is too small. Maybe they do have to tack on a Lavarnway and get back a lesser prospect with Garza. But I think you're substantially overstating the return that the Cubs will get for Garza.

[jung]

Yea I don't think you could get Garza that way either....If the discussion is Bard or Bard and Lars which I guess was how that original post got started it would take Bard plus Lars plus maybe couple somethings from AA if you did not want to give up any more AAA guys.

 

Garza won't come cheap and teams are already lining up to grab pitchers. Really not sure what combo would work for us to get a Garza.

 

You are onto something there SFF. I don't think Lars adds much if I am on the other side of that deal and might even think more of two prospects from a lower developmental level that had better long term potential....that might even be more attractive to the Cubs.

[FredLynn]

Bard is under team control until 2016, and is an elite relief pitcher.

 

He WAS an elite relief pitcher. I don't think he is any more.

[Spitball]

Team control man. Team control. I have said it 100 times. He's under control for 1.5 years. Then whoever acquires him has to pony up a long term deal. When the Cubs acquired Garza, he had 3 years left. How can you justify getting equal return with half of his control left? That's now how it works. The Cubs didn't just get a free rental for 1.5 years. It doesn't work that way.

 

Bard is under team control until 2016, and is an elite relief pitcher. He could easily be the closer of the future for the Cubs. Hell, he was supposed to be the closer of the future for the Sox.

 

Maybe the add-on player in Lars is too small. Maybe they do have to tack on a Lavarnway and get back a lesser prospect with Garza. But I think you're substantially overstating the return that the Cubs will get for Garza.

 

One and a half years still leaves a lot of time left on the control clock. Frankly though, I doubt Bard and Anderson even will get the Sox Dempster and his half a year.

 

The Cubs need to get a haul for Garza and Dempster. They have to replenish their farm system. Bard is a question mark and Anderson is not even an elite prospect in the Sox' organization.

 

I doubt the Sox can afford to drain any more talent from their system to compete for Garza. I think they may be in the market for Dempster, though.

[jacksonianmarch]

And with 2 months of control, the M's got Smoak. Guys, garzas price will be huge

[SoxFanForsyth]

And with 2 months of control' date=' the M's got Smoak. Guys, garzas price will be huge[/quote']

 

I hardly think that Garza will cost more than 2-3 prospects. If you go Bard/Lavarnway + Lars + Brentz, that would almost certainly get it done.

[SoxFanForsyth]

One and a half years still leaves a lot of time left on the control clock. Frankly though, I doubt Bard and Anderson even will get the Sox Dempster and his half a year.

 

The Cubs need to get a haul for Garza and Dempster. They have to replenish their farm system. Bard is a question mark and Anderson is not even an elite prospect in the Sox' organization.

 

I doubt the Sox can afford to drain any more talent from their system to compete for Garza. I think they may be in the market for Dempster, though.

 

Theo has said they want to get 5-6 prospects in total for Garza and Dempster. So if you give up Bard, Lars, and Brentz. Or Lavarnway, Lars, and Brentz, you could definitely pull Garza.

 

I think you guys are going to be very, very surprised at what the Cubs get for Garza.

 

And by the way, if you don't think the Cubs would pounce on Bard + Lars for Dempster, you're crazy. That would be a complete overpayment for Dempster.

[jacksonianmarch]

I hardly think that Garza will cost more than 2-3 prospects. If you go Bard/Lavarnway + Lars + Brentz' date=' that would almost certainly get it done.[/quote']

 

The number 1 pitching target in the majors will be Garza. Theo isn't taking a screwed up Bard, a AAAA player in Lars and a middling prospect in Brentz. Theo will get actual value for Garza.

[jacksonianmarch]

Garza will bring a prospect haul back. If the sox want him, you're gonna have to deal Barnes

[Rdsxmbnt]

Garza will bring a prospect haul back. If the sox want him' date=' you're gonna have to deal Barnes[/quote']

 

That is definetly not true, in fact the Red Sox have plenty of pieces to get Garza without even trading WMB, Bradley, Boegarts or Barnes.

 

Plus if Grienke or Hamels are on the block then the attention will be on them not Garza.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Garza will bring a prospect haul back. If the sox want him' date=' you're gonna have to deal Barnes[/quote']

 

Hahahaha.

 

Are you serious right now??

 

That's f***ing hilarious.

[jacksonianmarch]

They do not unless you deal those guys. You're delusional if you think otherwise. This guy is getting an ace haul simply because he's the best pitcher available

[SoxFanForsyth]

That is definetly not true, in fact the Red Sox have plenty of pieces to get Garza without even trading WMB, Bradley, Boegarts or Barnes.

 

Plus if Grienke or Hamels are on the block then the attention will be on them not Garza.

 

Which Grienke will be, almost certainly. And I would not be at all surprised to see Hamels on there too.

 

Hamels is a guy that I could see requiring one of Bogaerts, Bradley, or Barnes. Garza?? Haha. Please.

[SoxSport]

Anyway you look at it, the Sox are in deep trouble because of the CC and Adgon signings. They have to unload those guys--somehow. It's a twin killer now that AdGon has lost his stroke. They might wind up having to deal Ellsbury, but can't until he returns and gets going again.

[SoxFanForsyth]

They do not unless you deal those guys. You're delusional if you think otherwise. This guy is getting an ace haul simply because he's the best pitcher available

 

Lavarnway. Swihart. Cecchini. Alex Wilson. Henry Owens.

 

The Sox have a ton of talent in the lower minors. More than enough to get a deal done for Garza. You are insane to think anyone is going to match the haul for Cliff Lee.

 

Just because the Yankees got dicked on the Cliff Lee almost-trade doesn't mean that Garza is going to somehow turn into that same deal.

 

When Lee was dealt, he was 1 year removed from a Cy Young award, and had a 2.34 ERA.

 

That's such a stupid argument. To say that the Sox would have to part with Barnes for Garza?? Dude. Get your head on straight. Maybe if they were going after a guy like Hamels, Felix, Halladay, or Lee.

 

But Garza?? You just want the Sox to get hosed in the deal, and that's all there is to it.

[Rdsxmbnt]

They do not unless you deal those guys. You're delusional if you think otherwise. This guy is getting an ace haul simply because he's the best pitcher available

 

He probably won't be though, again Greinke, Hamels, Wandy Rodriguez, Jason Vargas, even Felix etc could all feasibly be on the market

[jung]

It might boil down to which teams decide to be sellers. There are some surprises down at the bottom of these divisions. They are surprises because you would have expected better performances.

 

Philly is a mess. Detroit may not end up going anywhere after all. While Cubs have announced their status earlier than most, the guys they have to offer will be measured against the other guys that are available. It is surely possible that Garza and Dempster are the best guys out there but it is not cast in stone, not yet anyway.

 

If they are the best of the pitchers available and especially if by a wide margin the cubs will get serious stuff back in return especially for Garza. Dempster may end up being the deal of the season. Will have to see who else there is out there.

[SoxFanForsyth]

He probably won't be though' date=' again Greinke, Hamels, Wandy Rodriguez, Jason Vargas, even Felix etc could all feasibly be on the market[/quote']

 

As is Brandon McCarthy, Bartolo Colon, Francisco Liriano, Shaun Marcum, possibly even Yiovanni Gallardo, and Joe Saunders.

 

Hell, I could even see the Phillies deal a guy like Cliff Lee to open up some salary space for a guy like Cole Hamels next year.

 

It's not like there is going to be 1 starter on the board. As much as Jackso want's it to be, the Cubs won't just be able to demand a huge haul because if they do, teams will just tell Theo to get bent and will go deal for one of the above pitchers.