2012 Potential Starting Lineup

[iMagic10]

No comments on Lincecum?

[SoxFanForsyth]

The sox would need to eat a yr of Lackey's salary

 

How do you figure that?!?

 

Bay: 3 years, 49mm left on contract

 

Lackey: 3 years, 45.75mm left on contract.

 

Lackey could be a decent pitcher when throwing in spacious Citi Field and in the NL. Bay sucks because Citi Field is so big, and he's a horrible defender.

 

I don't think the Sox would have to eat much, if any, of Lackey's contract in this deal.

[SoxFanForsyth]

No comments on Lincecum?

 

Lincecum = Unavailable. Not worth a response.

[iMagic10]

Lincecum = Unavailable. Not worth a response.

 

Even if we offer Beckett and money?

 

I'm sure they would give Lincecum up.

 

We need serious star starting pitchers, and this is what could do it for us.

[Station 13]

Even if we offer Beckett and money?

 

I'm sure they would give Lincecum up.

 

We need serious star starting pitchers, and this is what could do it for us.

 

Try Matt Cain instead. Lincecum is going nowhere.

 

Cain been a 200 inning horse and is just 26.

[Dojji]

Beckett for Lincecum is not happening. That's not even close to reciprocal value for a pitcher like Lincecum. Beckett is too wildly inconsistent year to year to be anywhere near that level of value.

 

Besides, the Giants are in the playoff hunt recently, even with their lack of offense and I'm sure they aren't going to give Lincecum up while that is true.

[SoxFanForsyth]

So here's my offseason -

 

1. Re-sign Papelbon, and then make Bard a starter. Yeah. I said it. Aceves is the new set-up guy, sign Papelbon, and Bard is your #5 starter. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than going out and spending on a new SP.

 

2. Trade Lackey for Bay. Straight up, no cash or anything. Bay hits LHP well, and makes this team much less lefty-heavy.

 

3. Three-team trade. Ellsbury to Atlanta for top prospects. Top prospects from ATL + Ranaudo to SEA for Felix.

 

Rotation:

 

Felix

Lester

Buchholz

Beckett

Bard

 

Lineup:

 

Crawford CF

Pedroia 2B

Gonzalez 1B

Bay LF

Ortiz DH

Youkilis 3B

Lavarnway/Salty C

Scutaro SS

Kalish RF

[SoxFanForsyth]

Even if we offer Beckett and money?

 

I'm sure they would give Lincecum up.

 

We need serious star starting pitchers, and this is what could do it for us.

 

Lincecum would be unavailable ESPECIALLY if we offered Beckett + $$$

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'll just say that you're not gonna fix this team by throwing more money at it.

[TedWilliams101]

How do you figure that?!?

 

Bay: 3 years, 49mm left on contract

 

Lackey: 3 years, 45.75mm left on contract.

 

Lackey could be a decent pitcher when throwing in spacious Citi Field and in the NL. Bay sucks because Citi Field is so big, and he's a horrible defender.

 

I don't think the Sox would have to eat much, if any, of Lackey's contract in this deal.

 

Bay? Are you f8cking kidding? Seriously, Bay?

He's averaged a 0.723 OPS the last 2 seasons. The problem isn't Citi field, it's that the Sox were right and his knees are gone. Why the hell would you want to swap a Healthy overpaid underperformer for a unhealthy overpaid underperformer?

 

That might be the worst idea I've seen.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

1. Re-sign Papelbon' date=' and then make Bard a starter. Yeah. I said it. Aceves is the new set-up guy, sign Papelbon, and Bard is your #5 starter. It's a [i']hell[/i] of a lot cheaper than going out and spending on a new SP.

 

Absolutely not.

 

2. Trade Lackey for Bay. Straight up, no cash or anything. Bay hits LHP well, and makes this team much less lefty-heavy.

 

I guess.

 

3. Three-team trade. Ellsbury to Atlanta for top prospects. Top prospects from ATL + Ranaudo to SEA for Felix.

 

I'll pass.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Bay? Are you f8cking kidding? Seriously, Bay?

He's averaged a 0.723 OPS the last 2 seasons. The problem isn't Citi field, it's that the Sox were right and his knees are gone. Why the hell would you want to swap a Healthy overpaid underperformer for a unhealthy overpaid underperformer?

 

That might be the worst idea I've seen.

 

I'll take a guy who can hit at Fenway Park over a guy who can't pitch anywhere anyday of the week.

 

If you had to take a gamble on Bay or Lackey?? After the season Lackey has had, his complete ******** and inability to be accountable for his horrid outings, you are telling me you'd rather have Lackey??

 

That's ridiculous. He has literally been the worst pitcher in Red Sox history. I would take Bay over Lackey 100 times out of 100.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Absolutely not.

 

Why not? You don't think 96-98 would work out of the rotation? He would be a hell of a starter if we stretched him out.

 

I guess.

 

It's a s*** for s*** trade. Lackey has been the worst pitcher in Red Sox history, and compound that with his complete lack of accountability. I'll get rid of him any way possible, and at least when you trade for Bay, you're getting a guy who can hit LHP for power, and can wear out the monster.

 

I'll pass.

 

Ellsbury is the Joe Mauer of center fielders. His value will never be higher than it is this offseason. The Braves need a bat like his as bad as the Red Sox need a stud starting pitcher. It is a perfect scenario. Ellsbury will return to around 15 HR per season, and while he's a great player, I'd much rather have Felix.

[Palodios]

So here's my offseason -

 

1. Re-sign Papelbon, and then make Bard a starter. Yeah. I said it. Aceves is the new set-up guy, sign Papelbon, and Bard is your #5 starter. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than going out and spending on a new SP.

 

2. Trade Lackey for Bay. Straight up, no cash or anything. Bay hits LHP well, and makes this team much less lefty-heavy.

 

3. Three-team trade. Ellsbury to Atlanta for top prospects. Top prospects from ATL + Ranaudo to SEA for Felix.

 

Rotation:

 

Felix

Lester

Buchholz

Beckett

Bard

 

Lineup:

 

Crawford CF

Pedroia 2B

Gonzalez 1B

Bay LF

Ortiz DH

Youkilis 3B

Lavarnway/Salty C

Scutaro SS

Kalish RF

 

I like this scenario, but I don't think Papelbon is coming back to Boston. If they let him go, that's 45-60 million and two first round prospects that could be used elsewhere. I'd rather get three to five relievers like Wheeler than one Papelbon. I made this point in another thread, but he has had two season ending blown saves in the last three years. We could definitely find someone else to blow big saves for a lot cheaper.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Past 2 seasons, Jason Bay's OPS+ = 100. Exactly League Average.

 

Past 2 seasons, John Lackeys ERA+ = 82. Well below League Average.

 

If you're going to pay the money, at least get league average production from it.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I like this scenario' date=' but I don't think Papelbon is coming back to Boston. If they let him go, that's 45-60 million and two first round prospects that could be used elsewhere. I'd rather get three to five relievers like Wheeler than one Papelbon. I made this point in another thread, but he has had two season ending blown saves in the last three years. We could definitely find someone else to blow big saves for a lot cheaper.[/quote']

 

Fair enough. Sign a closer is the biggest proponent, so that Bard can become a starter.

 

Hell, go get Heath Bell, I'm fine with that. He'll be available for 1/2 of Papelbon's salary.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Why not? You don't think 96-98 would work out of the rotation? He would be a hell of a starter if we stretched him out.

 

He'll want a f***ton of money. As I said, you won't fix anything here by just tossing more money at it.

 

The Red Sox have been behaving like the mid-2000s Yankees lately.

 

It's a s*** for s*** trade. Lackey has been the worst pitcher in Red Sox history, and compound that with his complete lack of accountability. I'll get rid of him any way possible, and at least when you trade for Bay, you're getting a guy who can hit LHP for power, and can wear out the monster.

 

I'm not against a s***-for-s*** trade, but you can understand me not being too amped about it.

 

Ellsbury is the Joe Mauer of center fielders. His value will never be higher than it is this offseason. The Braves need a bat like his as bad as the Red Sox need a stud starting pitcher. It is a perfect scenario. Ellsbury will return to around 15 HR per season, and while he's a great player, I'd much rather have Felix.

 

Can I borrow your eight ball?

[TedWilliams101]

I'll take a guy who can hit at Fenway Park over a guy who can't pitch anywhere anyday of the week.

 

If you had to take a gamble on Bay or Lackey?? After the season Lackey has had, his complete ******** and inability to be accountable for his horrid outings, you are telling me you'd rather have Lackey??

 

That's ridiculous. He has literally been the worst pitcher in Red Sox history. I would take Bay over Lackey 100 times out of 100.

 

I agree I'd rather have Bay than Lackey, but luckily it isn't a one or the other situation. How about this? Look elsewhere to dump Lackey. How about this: Cut him and call his contract a "f&ck up fee". You know, like the Dice-K negotiating fee...

[Palodios]

I'll take a guy who can hit at Fenway Park over a guy who can't pitch anywhere anyday of the week.

 

If you had to take a gamble on Bay or Lackey?? After the season Lackey has had, his complete ******** and inability to be accountable for his horrid outings, you are telling me you'd rather have Lackey??

 

That's ridiculous. He has literally been the worst pitcher in Red Sox history. I would take Bay over Lackey 100 times out of 100.

 

I think that it may be possible to sell Lackey as someone who went through emotional turmoil, which affected his performance. The change in environment would probably work wonders for Lackey. The problem is that it would be a huge PR hit to the NYM organization, and I would bet that Lackey's divorce and on-field antics will make him a tough sell to any organization, even the Mets.

 

Jason Bay is everything that the Red Sox like in a player personality-wise, and Fenway might be able to improve his value.

[SoxFanForsyth]

He'll want a f***ton of money. As I said, you won't fix anything here by just tossing more money at it.

 

The Red Sox have been behaving like the mid-2000s Yankees lately.

 

He's going into his first year of arbitration. He can't demand s***. He is under team control through 2015. It's a perfect time to have a potentially great, cost controlled SP.

 

I'm not against a s***-for-s*** trade' date=' but you can understand me not being too amped about it.[/quote']

 

Understandable. I was just clarifying, it's more to get Lackey off the roster than to get Bay on the roster.

 

Can I borrow your eight ball?

 

I'm just saying, man. Ellsbury had never touched double digit HR until this year. Don't get me wrong. He may be an 18-22 HR hitter, .300 average. I'm not saying he's going to be a bad player after this. He's a great player, period. But I don't think he's a 200 hit, 30+ HR, 40 SB, 100+RBI, 100+ Runs, .320+ hitter every year. Right now, we can trade him and get an elite SP, which is a huge need for this team.

[johndango]

For a guy like Felix, you trade Ellsbury plus some prospects, which is why it would require a 3-team trade. The Mariners can't afford Ellsbury, but there are other teams who have farm systems closer to the MLB level and can afford Ellsbury. Hell, when he hits FA, the Sox can go back and get him if they want to, and you miss 2 years of him.

 

Trade Ells + low level prospect to the Braves. Braves trade 2 good arms to Mariners + Red Sox trade someone like Lavarnway to Mariners. Mariners send Felix + prospect to Red Sox.

 

LOL. Let me help you there, I would nearly guarantee that there's almost no player combination that gets a Felix deal done, not being snippy- just honest. You'd have more chance going for Pineda, which if I were you I'd rather do anyway based on his age and salary. Also the Mariners could easily afford Ellsbury. They could afford Fielder or Pujols this year, there's just no way a player like that, truthfully, would sign with Seattle. I'm man enough to say it

[SoxFanForsyth]

I agree I'd rather have Bay than Lackey' date=' but luckily it isn't a one or the other situation. How about this? Look elsewhere to dump Lackey. How about this: Cut him and call his contract a "f&ck up fee". You know, like the Dice-K negotiating fee...[/quote']

 

So you would rather have nothing than Bay? Come on man. Bay can at least add some value vs LHP. Their contracts are virtually a wash. Bay can come in and play LF a little bit and DH a little bit as well.

 

Look, it's a lose-lose situation, but I would rather have the production from Bay than the production from Lackey, or just dump his contract for nothing.

[Dojji]

LOL. Let me help you there' date=' I would nearly guarantee that there's almost no player combination that gets a Felix deal done, not being snippy- just honest. You'd have more chance going for Pineda, which if I were you I'd rather do anyway based on his age and salary. Also the Mariners could easily afford Ellsbury. They could afford Fielder or Pujols this year, there's just no way a player like that, truthfully, would sign with Seattle. I'm man enough to say it [/quote']

 

I really doubt the Mariners are looking to move pitching at all right now. They've got some exciting prospects on the way in Robinson, Ackley and Liddi, and they seem to be preparing to ramp up again. Trading Felix now is an admission of defeat and would do a lot of damage to that franchise's image, so I doubt they seriously consider it.

 

You'd have better luck moving for one of Greinke and Marcum from the Brewers. That's not a rich franchise, if they lose Fielder that shrinks their window enough that they might try to get what they can now.

[Palodios]

LOL. Let me help you there' date=' I would nearly guarantee that there's almost no player combination that gets a Felix deal done, not being snippy- just honest. You'd have more chance going for Pineda, which if I were you I'd rather do anyway based on his age and salary. Also the Mariners could easily afford Ellsbury. They could afford Fielder or Pujols this year, there's just no way a player like that, truthfully, would sign with Seattle. I'm man enough to say it [/quote']

 

Felix will demand a big haul of prospects. But Ellsbury? How often do you see two years of a cost controlled reigning MVP player get traded? Almost never, so the package of prospects would probably be relatively close to large enough to get Felix-- who is also jumping up to a 20 million dollar salary in Seattle anyway.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

He's going into his first year of arbitration. He can't demand s***. He is under team control through 2015. It's a perfect time to have a potentially great' date=' cost controlled SP.[/quote']

 

Who are we talking about? I'm talking about Papelbon.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Who are we talking about? I'm talking about Papelbon.

 

Ohhhh. I was talking about Bard. My bad. I agree with you on Pap. I would be fine with signing Heath Bell, or Valverde. Doesn't matter to me. Get a good closer for 3/$30mm.

 

All I was saying was don't turn Bard into the closer, that's it. Get a closer so that Bard becomes a starter.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I really doubt the Mariners are looking to move pitching at all right now. They've got some exciting prospects on the way in Robinson, Ackley and Liddi, and they seem to be preparing to ramp up again. Trading Felix now is an admission of defeat and would do a lot of damage to that franchise's image, so I doubt they seriously consider it.

 

You'd have better luck moving for one of Greinke and Marcum from the Brewers. That's not a rich franchise, if they lose Fielder that shrinks their window enough that they might try to get what they can now.

 

Felix's contract over the next 3 years = 3 years/$60mm. That's a big bump in value, and the sooner they trade him, the more value they will get in prospects.

 

Ellsbury trade to the Braves (I live in Nashville, I hear everyday about how bad the Braves need a bat in the middle of that line up. I think Ells would be a perfect 3 hole hitter for them), and you can get the perfect prospects to seal the deal with the Braves. Probably have to tack on a mid-level guy from our farm, but that's just being nit picky at this point.

 

I cut that deal every single day of the year. And I would imagine that Felix will almost certainly be on the block with his salary bump.

[johndango]

Felix will demand a big haul of prospects. But Ellsbury? How often do you see two years of a cost controlled reigning MVP player get traded? Almost never' date=' so the package of prospects would probably be relatively close to large enough to get Felix-- who is also jumping up to a 20 million dollar salary in Seattle anyway.[/quote']

 

How often do you see a Cy Young award winner on a below value contract who has spent ~no time on the DL get traded?

 

I'm just saying, Dojji has it right. Seattle needs offense, but they're not going to trade one of the only legit home grown stars they've ever had for it. Right now, it'd be franchise suicide and Jack Z is too smart for that. Now that said, there is a lot of talk of AL ROTY candidate Michael Pineda being available for the right bat. I'm not sure what position would qualify for that though.

[SoxFanForsyth]

How often do you see a Cy Young award winner on a below value contract who has spent ~no time on the DL get traded?

I'm just saying, Dojji has it right. Seattle needs offense, but they're not going to trade one of the only legit home grown stars they've ever had for it. Right now, it'd be franchise suicide and Jack Z is too smart for that. Now that said, there is a lot of talk of AL ROTY candidate Michael Pineda being available for the right bat. I'm not sure what position would qualify for that though.

 

You mean like Greinke, Cliff Lee, CC Sabathia, Jake Peavy, and Johan Santana? :dunno:

[johndango]

I cut that deal every single day of the year. And I would imagine that Felix will almost certainly be on the block with his salary bump.

The Mariners are owned by Nintendo, Microsoft, and Boeing. They don't have to be concerned with money. As I said, they could afford Fielder or Pujols if either would actually sign with them.