2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

We were talking about pitchers Emmz. Maybe I should have made that clearer. However' date=' as inept as Cherington seems to be perhaps he could use a little hint here and there, and maybe looking for some Bel types would actually help him get his rear end off the ground.[/quote']

 

I hope they start looking for pitching first and no the OF RH. Once grabbed the pitcher(s), bring the OF RH which IMO is necessary as well if there's still budget of course; but still the #1 priority are the damn arms.

[NativeBostonian]

I wish people would stop with this. It is the single most overrated and useless excuse I have heard and means nowhere near as much as people make it out to. Knowing the pitching staff hasn't helped him not be a liability both offensively and defensively the last few seasons. They should of cut ties with Tek years ago.

 

Knowing s*** about the rotation that any professional catcher would learn quickly and being Josh Beckett's security blanket is not worth carrying a catcher who can hardly hit, is slow, can't throw and is prone to injuries.

 

So why did we go get a guy who isn't better. This move made us even worse off; financially, and offensively. I was happier with the kid learning the ropes. Shoppach BA, RBI's, and OBP is worse then Tek. They hit the same amount of home runs. By the way, Jason played in less games. So, please tell me how we are better off. You can't justify this signing.

[Emmz]

We were talking about pitchers Emmz. Maybe I should have made that clearer. However' date=' as inept as Cherington seems to be perhaps he could use a little hint here and there, and maybe looking for some Bel types would actually help him get his rear end off the ground.[/quote']

 

Well the discussion was about pitchers, but I'm simply discussing some good examples of dumpster diving. It is inaccurate to say it's never worked out for Theo, because that implies both pitchers and hitters IMO.

[a700hitter]

Shoppach hit Sabbathia like he owns him in my recollection.

[redsoxrules]

MLB teams have less than 24 hours to submit bids for Japanese right-hander Yu Darvish, who's available via the posting system. The Nationals, Yankees, A's, Rangers, Red Sox and Blue Jays have been linked to Darvish this month and other interested clubs may be lurking. MLB agents told MLBTR that they expect Darvish to require a financial commitment in excess of $100MM, including the posting fee and contract

 

Please stay away Ben

[Emmz]

So why did we go get a guy who isn't better. This move made us even worse off; financially' date=' and offensively. I was happier with the kid learning the ropes. At least he is young and has time to grow....[/quote']

 

He's cheap and holds runners. The rest of our guys can't do that, Salty is about the worst, Tek blows at all aspects now, etc. I'd hardly say it makes them worse off financially, it was pretty low risk, with a low reward most likely I will admit. I don't see how you can be upset with such a low cost move.

[redsoxrules]

Shoppach hit Sabbathia like he owns him in my recollection.

 

kinda.

 

930 OPS in 32 AB

[jung]

Maybe the kid will learn more. I am assuming the "kid" is Lavarnway. Maybe it is Salty that is going to be on the outs. Much chit chat today about how Sox FO was really much more displeased with Salty's performance last year than they were letting on at the time. That would not be a surprise. Depending on Lavarnway and and Mr.$1.35M would be a hell of a gamble if that is what the Sox have in mind.

 

You can say this much for their player personnel moves so far. They have been unpredictable with regard to "who". They have been very steadfast about "how much"......$0!

[redsoxrules]

When it comes to Yu Darvish and the Yankees, experience matters.

 

First, there’s the Yankees’ experience with Japanese pitchers, most notably Kei Igawa, the $46 million bust who won two games in 2007-08 before spending the past three seasons in the minors.

 

More importantly, however, is Darvish’s experience — or lack thereof — in the majors. According to a source, the Yankees are likely to submit a bid for Darvish before Wednesday’s 5 p.m. deadline, but it isn’t expected to be enough to win the negotiating rights for the 25-year-old righthander.

 

The Yankees are concerned about Darvish’s ability to make the transition to the majors, the source said, specifically the difference between the baseballs themselves, which are larger here than they are in Japan.

 

Another concern is the workload that starters take on in the majors, pitching every fifth day rather than once per week as they do in Japan’s Pacific League, where Darvish has played since 2007. Darvish did post impressive numbers last season — he was 18-6 with a 1.44 ERA and 276 strikeouts in 232 innings — but nobody knows how his stuff will translate.

[NativeBostonian]

He's cheap and holds runners. The rest of our guys can't do that' date=' Salty is about the worst, Tek blows at all aspects now, etc. I'd hardly say it makes them worse off financially, it was pretty low risk, with a low reward most likely I will admit. I don't see how you can be upset with such a low cost move.[/quote']

 

Because they didn't need to spend the money there if they weren't going to resign Tek. They have young talent that they could have plugged into the catcher position.

[a700hitter]

Well the discussion was about pitchers' date=' but I'm simply discussing some good examples of dumpster diving. It is inaccurate to say it's never worked out for Theo, because that implies both pitchers and hitters IMO.[/quote']"Dumpster Diving" a phrase coined by me in the offseason after 2008 to describe situations where the team takes a flier on a players that is damaged goods. In that offseason, the Sox went into the Dumpster and came out with Smoltz (post-op shoulder), Penny (bad shoulder) and Baldelli (debilitating mystery disease). Dumpster diving usually refers to pitchers, because position players can more easily overcome injuries and return to their previous form. Damaged pitchers, especially old damaged pitchers are usually done. Beltre and Bellhorn were not damaged goods and don't fall into the category of "Dumpster Diving."

[jung]

Regardless of the fact that the posting fee does not go against the LT, I don't think any number like $100M for the kind of risk that a SP from Japan represents sounds like anything this version of the Sox will go near with a ten foot pole.

[Soxfan1]

No' date=' you don't have to name off the low risk/high reward guys that have paid off in the last decade----for other teams, but I would like you to name those types that have paid off for us? I remember Penny and Smoltz and the disasters they turned out to be. Low risk/high reward was a canard every time Epstein tried that route and I'm not sure it would work any better with that mediocrity who took his place.[/quote']

 

Mike Timlin, Pokey, Bellhorn, Todd Jones, Bill Mueller and Ortiz have done a lot more good than Smoltz and Penny did harm.

[a700hitter]

Mike Timlin' date=' Pokey, Bellhorn, Todd Jones, Bill Mueller and Ortiz have done a lot more good than Smoltz and Penny did harm.[/quote']Again, none of those guys: Mike Timlin, Pokey, Bellhorn, Todd Jones, Bill Mueller and Ortiz were dumpster dives because they were not coming off serious injury.

[Soxfan1]

Fair enough, but I'm more refuting Fred's point than yours. Smoltz and Penny were damaged, but the Sox can manage to take a risk on a guy like Saunders.

[Emmz]

"Dumpster Diving" a phrase coined by me in the offseason after 2008 to describe situations where the team takes a flier on a players that is damaged goods. In that offseason' date=' the Sox went into the Dumpster and came out with Smoltz (post-op shoulder), Penny (bad shoulder) and Baldelli (debilitating mystery disease). Dumpster diving usually refers to pitchers, because position players can more easily overcome injuries and return to their previous form. Damaged pitchers, especially old damaged pitchers are usually done. Beltre and Bellhorn were not damaged goods and don't fall into the category of "Dumpster Diving."[/quote']

 

Beltre was coming off an injury though, so you're wrong on that, sorry.

 

I can't remember Bellhorn, but he was either injured or ineffective he previous year as well, maybe someone knows.

 

You didn't coin the term, and it doesn't just mean coming off injury, it just means they were on sale for whatever reason. Low risk, high reward type deal=dumpster diving.

[a700hitter]

Beltre was coming off an injury though, so you're wrong on that, sorry.

 

I can't remember Bellhorn, but he was either injured or ineffective he previous year as well, maybe someone knows.

 

You didn't coin the term, and it doesn't just mean coming off injury, it just means they were on sale for whatever reason. Low risk, high reward type deal=dumpster diving.

It's my term, I get to define it with regard to baseball acquisitions. My recollection with Beltre was that he wasn't coming off a debilitating injury that would affect his performance. I think he got hit in the balls without wearing a cup. It might be acutely painful, but it doesn't affect baseball skill long term.

[Emmz]

Yes, your majesty.

 

*bows to king of talksox*

[a700hitter]

Yes, your majesty.

 

*bows to king of talksox*

There's a place for you in my kingdom.

[Emmz]

It'll cost you, unless you give me a signed crown or your bat from when you hit .700.

[a700hitter]

It'll cost you' date=' unless you give me a signed crown or your bat from when you hit .700.[/quote']Kings don't pay with memorabilia. They use land.

[jung]

It might be acutely painful, but it doesn't affect baseball skill long term.

 

It doesn't! You try assuming a nice comfy slouch on the clubhouse couch holdin' on to your beer in one hand and your chicken wing in the other with an acute case of inflamed balls. Impossible to get comfortable. Man those Red Sox know how to suck it up....or is it suck em' down.

[Emmz]

LMAO.

[a700hitter]

It doesn't! You try assuming a nice comfy slouch on the clubhouse couch holdin' on to your beer in one hand and your chicken wing in the other with an acute case of inflamed balls. Impossible to get comfortable. Man those Red Sox know how to suck it up....or is it suck em' down.

I've watched more than a few games exactly like that.

[iortiz]

Kings don't pay with memorabilia. They use land.

 

[SoxSport]

Please stay away Ben

 

 

Henry's gonna get him for his soccer team.

[Spitball]

I can't remember Bellhorn, but he was either injured or ineffective he previous year as well, maybe someone knows.[/Quote]

 

Bellhorn, a Boston native, had a a good year in 2002 with the Cubs and one in Boston in 2004, but his career was marked by strikeouts and low averages.

 

You didn't coin the term, and it doesn't just mean coming off injury, it just means they were on sale for whatever reason. Low risk, high reward type deal=dumpster diving.

 

Along with other similar phrases, the term has been around in baseball since at least the mid 1990s. Here is one from 2007 referring to Pat Gillick for whom the term was possibly first referred to by Peter Gammons.

 

http://crashburnalley.com/2007/12/13/dumpster-diving/

[Spitball]

From mlbtraderumors.com

•The Red Sox are expected to exceed the $178MM luxury tax threshold next season according to WEEI.com's Alex Speier. The team will try to stay close to the threshold to minimize the penalty, however.

 

We may indeed see some dumpster diving.

[Emmz]

Bellhorn' date=' a Boston native, had a a good year in 2002 with the Cubs and one in Boston in 2004, but his career was marked by strikeouts and low averages.[/quote']

 

Yeah I know/remember his good year with the Cubs, but he had a shortened 2003 iirc, followed by his big year with the Sox.

 

Overall he wasn't that good, but he had some pop and it was a smart dumpster diving move IMO.

 

I'm a Twins fan too so I'm not a stranger to dumpster diving. Terry Ryan was all about that and building up the farm system to create good teams, plus not making idiotic trades like Smith did. Most of the AL Central division winning teams they fielded had no true stars.

 

Ryan just seemed to get it done, I'm glad Smith is out, that guy left this team with nothing, he destroyed a powerhouse with terrible trading.

[Spitball]

Yeah I know/remember his good year with the Cubs, but he had a shortened 2003 iirc, followed by his big year with the Sox.

 

Overall he wasn't that good, but he had some pop and it was a smart dumpster diving move IMO.

 

I'm a Twins fan too so I'm not a stranger to dumpster diving. Terry Ryan was all about that and building up the farm system to create good teams, plus not making idiotic trades like Smith did. Most of the AL Central division winning teams they fielded had no true stars.

 

Ryan just seemed to get it done, I'm glad Smith is out, that guy left this team with nothing, he destroyed a powerhouse with terrible trading.

 

I like the Twins, also. It is hard not to admire the job Ryan did with that team. Billy Beane gets so much credit, but Ryan actually did a better job of building a consistent winner in a small market.

 

I was in Fort Myers this spring and made friends with several of their loyal fans.