2011 Playoffs for granted?

[iortiz]

Yeah' date=' except for the fact that neither of those guys were even remotely obtainable. Try again.[/quote']

 

Are you their agent?... You always speak like if you were.

 

As I said, this is Theo's job, no mine, and certainly no yours... He is paid to make things happen, can't handle? Go!.... besides, as I said, he didn't preview since the beginig, I already rest my argument, not agree?, I respect your view but I don't share it, sorry.

 

After all, the final big picture/result is what gonna matter in the end, and Henry is who gonna put all the things in the balance in order to continue with this GM or not... we'll see how it ends, hope great.

[Palodios]

Are you their agent?... You always speak like if you were.

 

Kuroda explicitly said he wasn't going to waive his no-trade clause. Seriously, we've said that like ten f***ing times, and I think someone cited it earlier. I know English isn't your natural language, but if you're going to try to be part of these discussions, try to pretend you know what is going on.

[iortiz]

@iortiz - The problem with Kuroda was that he had a no trade clause that he said he would not waive to go to Boston. The problem with Jimenez was that the Guardians gave the Rox more than the Red Sox had to offer if they wanted to.

 

Bedard, Harden, Fister, Dempster were the only ones really available, and at the time, Lackey was throwing well enough, Bedard was going to slide into the 3rd slot, and Wake was going to take over as the 5th man. They were wanting to get both Harden AND Bedard, but Oakland was demanding too much for Harden with a bad physical. The Tigers overpaid for Fister, although he's been brilliant since the ASB, and you can make an argument for him. Still, though, I think the Tigers offered more for Fister than the Sox would have been comfortable giving up for a middle-of-the-rotation starter. The reason the Tigers gave up so much was because they had Verlander - Scherzer as their 1-2 punch. Now, with Fister, they can go toe to toe with anyone 1-2, which makes them awfully dangerous.

 

Basically, other teams were more desperate for SP than the Red Sox at the deadline. The deal they made was a solid deal while not mortgaging the future.

 

Trust me, in a couple years when Jimenez is posting 4+ ERA's, and guys like Will Middlebrooks, Jose Iglesias, and Anthony Ranaudo are the new Dustin Pedroia's and Clay Buchholz's of the team, you'll be thrilled we didn't pull the trigger. It was just a couple years ago that the best move Theo made in the offseason was not pulling the trigger on Johan Santana, which would have cost Lester + Ellsbury +1 IIRC.

 

The true and fact my friend is that our QS stat is pathetic for a team which alraedy spent 180 MUSD... that is the bottom-line since is costing us games....and these days we are panicking because we gonna face s***** teams like O's, TB and TOR? And making maths to figure out how we gonna make the POs at this point? Unacceptable.

 

Just for the record, I see this like a CEO or an investor who already put 180 MUSD. If you were my GM I would ask you for the WS, not less and not excuses, I already put 180 MUSD... THIS IS HOW BUSINESS WORK, TRUST ME. Sure, it has not finished yet.. We'll see how it ends.

 

BTW I hope that Theo is cooking that King Felix trade that you once said...:thumbsup:

[iortiz]

Kuroda explicitly said he wasn't going to waive his no-trade clause. Seriously' date=' we've said that like ten f***ing times, and I think someone cited it earlier. I know English isn't your natural language, but if you're going to try to be part of these discussions, try to pretend you know what is going on.[/quote']

 

Are you kidding me? I said that in general, not only in Kuroda's case (besides, I'm not sure if he pushed that hard to bring him like he did with D-K, but surly you know he did, don't you?)... You just asked which pitchers I liked from that set and I just answered, you wanted to turn the discussion, didn't you? Since it wasn't going nowhere... Sorry, is my English that bad?

 

But again, Theo didn't plan well at our rotation's depth THAT.IS.A.FACT. Look our rank at the QS column, if you still thinking that he did just fine or enough, good luck with who/where you put your money and investments buddy.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Are you kidding me? I said that in general, not only in Kuroda's case (besides, I'm not sure if he pushed that hard to bring him like he did with D-K, but surly you know he did, don't you?)... You just asked which pitchers I liked from that set and I just answered, you wanted to turn the discussion, didn't you? Since it wasn't going nowhere... Sorry, is my English that bad?

 

But again, Theo didn't plan well at our rotation's depth THAT.IS.A.FACT. Look our rank at the QS column, if you still thinking that he did just fine or enough, good luck with who/where you put your money and investments buddy.

 

Plain and simple. You want to have depth that can come in and give you 6 IP or more, 3 ER or less. That's, at worst, a 4.50 ERA, averaging 6 IP per outing. You're simply not going to find that because that's not available. Any pitcher who can post those kinds of numbers is in the MLB throwing every 5 days. Our organizational depth at the P position is weak in the upper minors right now, strong in the lower minors, so we didn't have any Clay Buchholzs, Jon Lesters, Mastersons, etc to come up and contribute this year. So we got Aceves, Wakefield, Doubront, Miller, Weiland as depth.

 

You know why they were available? Because either we drafted them, or they're not very good. When you replace your 5th man in the rotation with one of those guys, you don't take a huge hit. When you have to replace your #1 and #3 and #5 men in the rotation all at once over a 2 week span, it's glaring.

[SoxSport]

Somebody mentioned Dempster. 1.46 whip, last time I looked. Stay away.

[SoxSport]

You know why they were available? Because either we drafted them, or they're not very good. When you replace your 5th man in the rotation with one of those guys, you don't take a huge hit. When you have to replace your #1 and #3 and #5 men in the rotation all at once over a 2 week span, it's glaring.

 

Yeah. It's not the hitting at all. It's been the pitching. They thought they could go with a bunch of stiffs--and it hasn't worked out. Imagine trotting out guys start after start with 1.5 whips. Those guys are getting HIT. Wake up, Theo.

 

They lost Dice-K, and they lost Buchholz. And never replaced either of those guys.

 

They are, by the way, still no.1 in hitting. Have been, the whole season.

 

Somebody hang a sign in Theo's office: "It's the pitching, stupid!" :harhar:

[iortiz]

Plain and simple. You want to have depth that can come in and give you 6 IP or more, 3 ER or less. That's, at worst, a 4.50 ERA, averaging 6 IP per outing. You're simply not going to find that because that's not available. Any pitcher who can post those kinds of numbers is in the MLB throwing every 5 days. Our organizational depth at the P position is weak in the upper minors right now, strong in the lower minors, so we didn't have any Clay Buchholzs, Jon Lesters, Mastersons, etc to come up and contribute this year. So we got Aceves, Wakefield, Doubront, Miller, Weiland as depth.

 

You know why they were available? Because either we drafted them, or they're not very good. When you replace your 5th man in the rotation with one of those guys, you don't take a huge hit. When you have to replace your #1 and #3 and #5 men in the rotation all at once over a 2 week span, it's glaring.

 

You need to go and look at the big picture and expand the period of time and consider the overall outcome of the whole thing in order to evaluate 2011 Theo's exercise. This is how top managements are always rated. Sure, it ain't over yet, and as I've been saying, we have to wait and see the final result, but there were/still are symptoms not just before the trade deadline (reactionary making moves there) but even since 2010 season (planning commence here and if you rush me, before)

 

I was always pointing that this team was unbalanced, even when Buch was pitching in the first half of the season. Somehow this offense even with Carl Crawford performing terrible and a few others performing just average, this offense always kept and bear this team in the fight of the division. In fact, They were grand part of the season leading several offense departments.

 

On the other hand, the pitching has been terrible, it doesn't matter how you split/justify it. Today we are the 20th and the 26th in ERA and QS respectively in all baseball as a pitching staff. Those numbers haven't fluctuated significantly since the THE BEGINING OF THE SEASON.

 

If this team collapse or go out early in the playoffs, you can start looking for answers over there. You can bet that the first question that Henry gonna make is: why you let this happen? And most important, WHY DIDN'T YOU PLAN AND MAKE THE NECESSARY ADJUSTMENTS IF ALL THE SYMPTOMS WERE THERE SINCE 2010?, WHY?

 

Those questions and responsibilities are charged to the GM, no Tito, no Lackey, no D-K but the GM. Trust me, as a CEO or Owner, you don't want excuses, you expect results since they already put 180 MUSD. This is how business work. They expect ROI and a favorable IRR. You can't return that? You have to go, this is business, no hard-feelings.

 

Another failure this year (don't make the POs or leave early once there), I'd be surprised if Theo Epstein continuos in this organization.

 

We'll see how it ends. Hope a happy ending.

 

BTW Theo's abilities at FA are terrible, you can pile a tons of names out there.

[Palodios]

Let me ask this one more time since you keep ignoring it. What did you want to do? Your solution has been, time and time again "Go get Kuroda and Jimeniz" but neither of those were options for this organization. What would you have done?

[iortiz]

Again. I could suggest and pretend to know the accurate answers (like you). But in the end it doesn't matter matter my friend. Who has the elements/the context of the business and the most important, who is very well paid to deliver results is Mr. Theo Epstein, and he my friend, is the only one who is gonna to be charged if the ship falls down in the end of the road, you can count on that. This has been my value and cognitive judgement and opinion of this issue.

 

THE GM DIDN'T PLAN WELL THE ROTATION'S DEPTH.

 

Somehow the partial results in that department give me at least a little bit credit in my argument.

[Palodios]

Again. I could suggest and pretend to know the accurate answers (like you). But it doesn't matter matter my friend. Who has the elements/the context of the business and the most important, who is very well paid to deliver results is Mr. Theo Epstein, and he my friend, is the only one who is gonna to be charged if the ship falls down in the end of the road, you can count on that. This has been my value and cognitive judgement and opinion of this issue.

 

THE GM DIDN'T PLAN WELL THE ROTATION'S DEPTH.

 

Somehow the partial results in that department give me at least a little bit credit.

 

What you don't understand is that sometimes things can't be done. You are given certain cards, and circumstances. You are working under the assumption that Theo has some magical formula that will allow him to see which players are going to be superstars, but that's not the case. The kinds of pitchers you wanted as depth didn't exist as depth, they existed as starters, and had no desire to be depth.

 

On top of that, he was involved in every single available pitcher at the trade deadline. Every single one-- he did his homework and left no stone unturned. Every available pitcher. Word was, there was actually a deal in place to get Kuroda, until Kuroda said he wouldn't waive his no trade clause. Go back and look at the reports, Theo was very active, but there simply wasn't a good pitcher out there for this team.

[Dojji]

High payrolls fix everything though.

 

Just ask the Cubs.

[iortiz]

What you don't understand is that sometimes things can't be done. You are given certain cards' date=' and circumstances[/b']. You are working under the assumption that Theo has some magical formula that will allow him to see which players are going to be superstars, but that's not the case. The kinds of pitchers you wanted as depth didn't exist as depth, they existed as starters, and had no desire to be depth.

 

On top of that, he was involved in every single available pitcher at the trade deadline. Every single one-- he did his homework and left no stone unturned. Every available pitcher. Word was, there was actually a deal in place to get Kuroda, until Kuroda said he wouldn't waive his no trade clause. Go back and look at the reports, Theo was very active, but there simply wasn't a good pitcher out there for this team.

 

Is it me or I'm starting to feel as If I was Henry and you Theo making excuses... if that was the case you definitely were in serious problems son.

 

Again. I wouldn't focus my energies on those pitchers/trade deadline. Theo should make some adjustments and moves since the beginning or even before IMO. The planning consider large periods of time. And he didn't plan well, even with all the signs there. That is my point.

 

 

In the end the owners will run the numbers and certainly will consider if he continuos or not, that's the fact.

[Palodios]

Again. I wouldn't focus my energies on those pitchers/trade deadline. Theo should make some adjustments and moves since the beginning or even before IMO. The planning consider large periods of time. And he didn't plan well, even with all the signs there. That is my point.

 

Fine. Then who did you want at the beginning of the season? You want Theo fired so badly, but you can't even tell me how you'd solve any of these problems.

[iortiz]

Fine. Then who did you want at the beginning of the season? You want Theo fired so badly' date=' but you can't even tell me how you'd solve any of these problems.[/quote']

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't even know him, why would I want that, so badly?

 

As I said, In the end Henry will run the numbers in order to evaluate and balance the whole outcome. If the numbers are not favorable, He will go, you bet, but some answers could come from the rotation's depth plan.

 

On the other hand, I'm just pointing some facts, and pointing who IMO is the main responsible of this issue.

[Palodios]

On the other hand' date=' I'm just pointing some facts, and pointing who IMO is the main responsible of this issue. [/quote']

 

Or perhaps its more likely that you've found a scapegoat you like and clung onto him. There are members of this organization that are mediocre and replaceable, like Tito. But Theo is not one of them.

 

The Red Sox are a business. If they continue selling out the park, and get some money from playoff revenue, what difference does it make to the ownership group-- especially so if Theo is still planning for the future.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Morrow vs Wakefield and Romero vs Lackey are 'extremely favorable matchups' for the Sox?

 

Red Sox offense vs Romero and Morrow are extremely favorable' date=' I don't care who is on the mound.[/quote']

 

Ah' date=' well that's logical.[/quote']

 

Morrow (13.83 ERA vs BOS) vs Wakefield (5.02 ERA vs TOR) gives the Red Sox an 8.81 ERA advantage. I'd say that's extremely favorable. But thanks.

 

Yeah' date=' because those statistics are more relevant than their overall numbers. Something is to be said for sample sizes.[/quote']

 

Just wanted to remind you of this, Yankee228. I guess those 18 runs last night were a result of another small sample size. Morrow will probably get em next time out.

[iortiz]

Or perhaps its more likely that you've found a scapegoat you like and clung onto him. There are members of this organization that are mediocre and replaceable, like Tito. But Theo is not one of them.

 

The Red Sox are a business. If they continue selling out the park, and get some money from playoff revenue, what difference does it make to the ownership group-- especially so if Theo is still planning for the future.

 

Sorry dude, but your perception is wrong. It ain't personal to me as it seems to be for you. My point of view is strictly business.

 

I see that you comence to see the light and the thing as a business, great step, so... Let me put it this way. If the Red Sox doesn't make the minimum expected Revenue/EBITDA/Profit, some questions gonna be made by the main stakeholders and certainly Theo's head would be jeopardy.

 

In order to rest my case, let me say this; if those financial statements show and confirm that they got short by not making the playoffs or by go out early once there (since there wouldn't be cash flow income via TV rights, merchandising, advertasing, tickets, etc., etc, etc.) as I said, Theo's head would lead those heads which gonna roll, you bet.

 

I could make you a decent financial case but since The Red Sox doesn't quote in the market stock since they are a private entity, I don't have elements and ignore their financial statements and how much represent in terms of money do not make the playoffs or go out early once there. I'd presume tons of money, but I certainly don't know.

 

We have to wait and see how it ends, and again, hope a happy ending.

[Palodios]

In order to rest my case' date=' let me say this; if those financial statements show and confirm that they got short by not making the playoffs or by go out early once there (since there wouldn't be cash flow income via TV rights, merchandising, advertasing, tickets, etc., etc, etc.) as I said, Theo's head would lead those heads which gonna roll, you bet..[/quote']

 

What you don't understand is that if they get to the World Series and lose, they get a smaller piece of the pie, but the difference is pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things. Hell, they'll probably make more money that way than if they paid for Beltran and won it all.

 

If they don't make the playoffs, that will be a huge failure financially. But they're making the playoffs, and I really don't see any team beating out Beckett/Lester in four games in a five game series, so there is a good chance they'll get that money for the ALCS too.

[jacksonianmarch]

Just wanted to remind you of this' date=' Yankee228. I guess those 18 runs last night were a result of another small sample size. Morrow will probably get em next time out.[/quote']

 

and the Romero vs Lackey talk? The one where Romero threw 8 innings and won?

[jacksonianmarch]

What you don't understand is that if they get to the World Series and lose, they get a smaller piece of the pie, but the difference is pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things. Hell, they'll probably make more money that way than if they paid for Beltran and won it all.

 

If they don't make the playoffs, that will be a huge failure financially. But they're making the playoffs, and I really don't see any team beating out Beckett/Lester in four games in a five game series, so there is a good chance they'll get that money for the ALCS too.

 

Beckett and Lester will throw 3 of the 5 games in the ALDS, assuming they make it. The Phils will choose the long series, so the short one will have the sox go to Beckett and Lester both on 3 days rest, which isnt good for the sox. Lets say the sox get the WC, their edge will be eaten up in the ace column by Verlander and then 2 more games will be thrown by Lackey, Miller, or name your starter. The sox are almost better off facing Texas since the advantage in the rotation wont be as up front and they can just try to slug it out.

[Palodios]

Beckett and Lester will throw 3 of the 5 games in the ALDS' date=' assuming they make it. The Phils will choose the long series, so the short one will have the sox go to Beckett and Lester both on 3 days rest, which isnt good for the sox. Lets say the sox get the WC, their edge will be eaten up in the ace column by Verlander and then 2 more games will be thrown by Lackey, Miller, or name your starter. The sox are almost better off facing Texas since the advantage in the rotation wont be as up front and they can just try to slug it out.[/quote']

 

Why would the Phils choose the long series? It is in their best interest to see their opponent's #3 and 4 starters against Hamels and Oswalt, plus that will keep Roy and Cliff rested.

[iortiz]

What you don't understand is that if they get to the World Series and lose' date=' they get a smaller piece of the pie, but the difference is pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things[/b']. Hell, they'll probably make more money that way than if they paid for Beltran and won it all.

 

If they don't make the playoffs, that will be a huge failure financially. But they're making the playoffs, and I really don't see any team beating out Beckett/Lester in four games in a five game series, so there is a good chance they'll get that money for the ALCS too.

 

I would say that this is not a matter of understanding, but the accurate knowledge of their financial statements. How much is the value of that pie and how it is split, I completely ignore it.

 

If you have the precise data (financial statements), you could share it in order to build a decent business case.

[Palodios]

I would say that this is not a matter of understanding, but the accurate knowledge of their financial statements. How much is the value of that pie and how it is split, I completely ignore it.

 

If you have the precise data (financial statements), you could share it in order to build a decent business case.

 

From what I understand, tickets and concessions goes to the team, and then the tv money is split up between every team, with playoff teams getting a bigger piece of the pie. I would have to dig it up after work, but it is available online somewhere, I definitely remember reading it. The actual dollar figure aren't shown, but it tells you what percentage each teams get.

 

edit: Or maybe that's just player shares... hmm.. I'll continue looking.

[SoxSport]

They didn't expect Dice-K and Buchholz--2/5s of the rotation-- to go down for essentially the season.

 

The big failures have been Lackey, Miller and Wake. Keeping these guys in the rotation start after start, while keeping a better pitcher, Aceves, in a bullpen role. Plus they blew it on the Harden trade.

The guy has pitched better than the three Sox amigos--though the Yankees bombed him last time out.

 

My sense is Theo wasn't really willing to go the extra step like the Phillies and the Guardians. Perhaps he figured the wild card was enough.

 

GMs do strange things. Look how Danny Ainge blew up the Celtics in mid season last year, trading Perkins.

[jacksonianmarch]

Why would the Phils choose the long series? It is in their best interest to see their opponent's #3 and 4 starters against Hamels and Oswalt' date=' plus that will keep Roy and Cliff rested.[/quote']

 

Because Roy and Cliff are the 2 best pitchers in the NL, and no matter what they have after them, they are going to try and get them to pitch as much as they can in the POs

[a700hitter]

What you don't understand is that if they get to the World Series and lose, they get a smaller piece of the pie, but the difference is pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things. Hell, they'll probably make more money that way than if they paid for Beltran and won it all.

This is just pulled righ out of the back of your shorts.

[a700hitter]

Poor poor Theo. He's so unlucky. All the good players were taken. No one was available. It would have been too expensive to get any reinforcements. Plus, we wouldn't want to sacrifice the future by trading any of the numerous future superstars in our system. You'll see. They'll be here any year now.

 

If JH and the other owners buy this crap ^ they are soft in the head.

[jacksonianmarch]

The sox "future" is now. They gutted their upper levels and the biggest name they have is Lavarnway, who is a DH. The sox MiLB system is gutted until you get to A ball.

[Meh]

The sox "future" is now. They gutted their upper levels and the biggest name they have is Lavarnway' date=' who is a DH. The sox MiLB system is gutted until you get to A ball.[/quote']

 

I believe a700 was being sarcastic or at least I hope.