2011 Playoffs for granted?

[jacksonianmarch]

And how was Lackey a Red Light?? He threw over 210 IP, won 14 games and posted a 4.40 ERA. His 2nd half, he posted a 3.96 ERA. Do you expect us to have a rotation of 5 sub-3.50 ERA pitchers? The 4 and 5 pitchers are meant to eat innings and keep you in the game. They're not, by any means, supposed to be top of the rotation starters, regardless of how Francona lined it up in the beginning of the season.

 

And Buchholz was as green as the light gets. 2.33 ERA? Come on man.

 

Lackey looked terrible the first half of the yr and he looked worse in spring training. Regardless, what happened to the Yanks isnt gonna happen again. You dont make 2 scrap heap signings and bring in a rookie and turn that into a solid #2-4 in your rotation in the AL East. That's not happening again

[SoxFanForsyth]

Lackey looked terrible the first half of the yr and he looked worse in spring training. Regardless' date=' what happened to the Yanks isnt gonna happen again. You dont make 2 scrap heap signings and bring in a rookie and turn that into a solid #2-4 in your rotation in the AL East. That's not happening again[/quote']

 

Well, if we're being fair, I think a lot of people attributed his poor first half to a transition period of going from the AL West to the AL East. His BB/9 decreased and K/9 increased in the 2nd half, and he became the pitcher we thought we signed, which is a guy who is going to be out there and giving you 7 IP, 3-4 ER, and occasionally a brilliant outing.

 

As far as spring training goes, you can't ever take any stock in that. More often than not, pitchers are working on certain things (i.e. fastball, curveball, location, etc).

[iortiz]

And how was Lackey a Red Light?? He threw over 210 IP, won 14 games and posted a 4.40 ERA. His 2nd half, he posted a 3.96 ERA. Do you expect us to have a rotation of 5 sub-3.50 ERA pitchers? The 4 and 5 pitchers are meant to eat innings and keep you in the game. They're not, by any means, supposed to be top of the rotation starters, regardless of how Francona lined it up in the beginning of the season.

 

And Buchholz was as green as the light gets. 2.33 ERA? Come on man.

 

Oks, oks give Lackey the green light.... :harhar:

 

Seriously, were you that confident on Lackey?, I mean, his fast ball and command wasn't going that good anymore IMO...

 

And what is worse, I don't see how he could come back, and we will have to deal with a massive 3 yr contract left.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Oks, oks give Lackey the green light.... :harhar:

 

Seriously, were you that confident on Lackey?, I mean, his fast ball and command weren't going that good anymore IMO...

 

And what is worse, I don't see how he could come back, and we will have to deal with a massive 3 yr contract left.

 

I'm not confident in him now, but I was confident in him at the beginning of the season. Go look at his 2nd half splits last year. He looked like a solid pitcher.

[iortiz]

The argument is about building depth' date=' so complaining about Buch, who had no injury concerns at the time, is silly. Even if he ended up being a low 4.00 ERA guy, that would have been acceptable.[/quote']

 

Nobody is complaining, I was just pointing that for me, he is still a rookie and you can not give him full responsibility just like that yet, that's all.

[Palodios]

Dubront's injury problems started in spring training. Once his health became an issue' date=' they should have looked elsewhere for depth.[/quote']

 

You don't seem to understand that there isn't always a pile of solid pitchers who can fill in as a middle of the rotation starter lined up at spring training for whoever wants them. The Cardinals lost an ace early on, and they couldn't replace him.

[a700hitter]

To me' date=' it seems like you and iortiz are the ones making excuses. Blaming the FO for not getting someone at the deadline/building more depth. The fact remains, there was nothing there. You want to scoop some 4.50 ERA, 180 IP pitcher out of this invisible bucket but there was no SP to be found.[/quote']Speaking for myself, I am not making any excuses. The team is collapsing because we have no pitching down the stretch. In reality, our starting pitching has been poor all season long. Our Quality Start statistic is pathetic. We are losing because we don't have the players. The FO gets the players. They take the blame. No excuses. Lester and Beckett will finish with over 30 starts. Lackey will have 27-28 starts, and Wakefield has over 20 starts.

 

The Yankees #2 pitcher imploded and they suffered through 30 of his starts and Hughes has as few starts as Buchholz. The Yankee bullpen suffered several serious long term injuries-- more than the Sox. Stop whining injuries are part of the game, not an excuse. The Yanks had their fair share of injuries-- overall probably more than the Sox. Using injuries as an excuse just makes you all look like bad losers-- and that's how the Yankee fans think of us.

[iortiz]

I'm not confident in him now' date=' but I was confident in him at the beginning of the season. Go look at his 2nd half splits last year. He looked like a solid pitcher.[/quote']

 

Then put him a yellow light, since his first half and spring training was terrible.

 

In the end we didn't have enough green lights. IMO, and sorry Pal and SoxFan but that's Theo's fault.

[Palodios]

The Yankees #2 pitcher imploded and they suffered through 30 of his starts and Hughes has as few starts as Buchholz. The Yankee bullpen suffered several serious long term injuries-- more than the Sox. Stop whining injuries are part of the game' date=' not an excuse. The Yanks had their fair share of injuries-- overall probably more than the Sox. Using injuries as an excuse just makes you all look like bad losers-- and that's how the Yankee fans think of us.[/quote']

 

Except that the Yankees spent tens of millions of dollars this season on their bullpen to make up for their bad starters. That was part of the plan, have starters who'd barely make it out of the 5th/6th innings, and have a dominant back end to stop the damage. You are completely ignoring the main point that completely derails you-- 5 of 6 Red Sox best starters have either been injured or have been ineffective.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Speaking for myself, I am not making any excuses. The team is collapsing because we have no pitching down the stretch. In reality, our starting pitching has been poor all season long. Our Quality Start statistic is pathetic. We are losing because we don't have the players. The FO gets the players. They take the blame. No excuses. Lester and Beckett will finish with over 30 starts. Lackey will have 27-28 starts, and Wakefield has over 20 starts.

 

The Yankees #2 pitcher imploded and they suffered through 30 of his starts and Hughes has as few starts as Buchholz. The Yankee bullpen suffered several serious long term injuries-- more than the Sox. Stop whining injuries are part of the game, not an excuse. The Yanks had their fair share of injuries-- overall probably more than the Sox. Using injuries as an excuse just makes you all look like bad losers-- and that's how the Yankee fans think of us.

 

And they have two retreads in Colon and Garcia who came out of freaking nowhere and are posting low 3 ERA's. What if they threw like they were supposed to, and didn't have absolute career years (in Garcia's place) and "stem cell transplants"? The Yankees would probably be behind the Rays!

 

You can't compare the two teams because while the Yankees had Hughes (Buchholz) and Burnett (Lackey), they also have Colon and Garcia who are throwing better than anyone could have ever expected. If DiceK and Bedard were still here, throwing to 3.35 ERA's, this team would be fine.

[iortiz]

To me' date=' it seems like you and iortiz are the ones making excuses. Blaming the FO for not getting someone at the deadline/building more depth. The fact remains, there was nothing there. You want to scoop some 4.50 ERA, 180 IP pitcher out of this invisible bucket but there was no SP to be found.[/quote']

 

Zero excuses just the opposite, I'm pointing the responsible, and for me It is FO's fault.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

This is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Theo is a bad manager because our players got injured? What? Besides Jimenez which btw we weren't going to get because the Guardians outbid us. The way he's pitching now in the AL Central it probably would have looked bad in the AL East anyways. Who else was available to pick up? There aren't many options to be honest. Theo tried to pick up some players and he picked up Bedard who has done a solid job so far and Aviles. No one in this thread..better yet site better say Hunter Pence because when Reddick was on a hot streak everyone wanted to keep him and he wasn't even a thought on anyones mind. The person a few people wanted mostly a700 was Beltran which btw is sucking it up at SF and is it just me or has the Giants gotten worse and slipped away from the division? Sorry Theo didn't make a blockbuster deal at the trade deadline but that doesn't make him a bad GM. This will all fade away when the Red Sox get back on track. Just like those forget about Francona when we start rolling

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

over teams. If anyone thinks we're going to keep losing games like we did to Toronto and the Rays you're insane. We're not out of the playoff race and for all you know the Rays could collapse and we take the wildcard with ease. The Rays just happened to play good baseball when we didn't and took advantage.

 

Why are Pal and Forsyth taking heat? They're makeing legit arguments and they're being ignored as if they're talking crazy. They're on point on just about everything they said. With that said, great posts guys. I'd like to see this thread get bumped in about 2 weeks and hear what everyone has to say.

[iortiz]

And they have two retreads in Colon and Garcia who came out of freaking nowhere and are posting low 3 ERA's. What if they threw like they were supposed to, and didn't have absolute career years (in Garcia's place) and "stem cell transplants"? The Yankees would probably be behind the Rays!

 

You can't compare the two teams because while the Yankees had Hughes (Buchholz) and Burnett (Lackey), they also have Colon and Garcia who are throwing better than anyone could have ever expected. If DiceK and Bedard were still here, throwing to 3.35 ERA's, this team would be fine.

 

That my friend, is management. They looked something on them that is working, is not coincidence.

[SoxFanForsyth]

That my friend' date=' is management. They looked something in they and is working, is not coincidence.[/quote']

 

Dude. Be serious. If there were any other pitchers available, the Yankees would have been all over it.

 

Bartolo Colon started out in the bullpen man. Come on.

[iortiz]

Dude. Be serious. If there were any other pitchers available, the Yankees would have been all over it.

 

Bartolo Colon started out in the bullpen man. Come on.

 

I'm agree with u, I'm just saying that they saw something on them that you and me certainly didn't.

[Palodios]

That my friend' date=' is management. They looked something on them that is working, is not coincidence.[/quote']

 

Bartolo Colon is old enough to be a grandfather, and hasn't pitched a full season in several years. There is a zero-- mark that-- zero percent chance they believed he could stay this healthy. Sure, maybe they saw him and thought he could be a good pitcher again, but based on his health and injury history, there is zero, mark that, zero chance they were expecting that.

[a700hitter]

And they have two retreads in Colon and Garcia who came out of freaking nowhere and are posting low 3 ERA's. What if they threw like they were supposed to, and didn't have absolute career years (in Garcia's place) and "stem cell transplants"? The Yankees would probably be behind the Rays!

 

You can't compare the two teams because while the Yankees had Hughes (Buchholz) and Burnett (Lackey), they also have Colon and Garcia who are throwing better than anyone could have ever expected. If DiceK and Bedard were still here, throwing to 3.35 ERA's, this team would be fine.

I think you have to give the Yankees credit for scouting these guys and checking them out physically. Now, you want to blame the good luck of your opponent. The whining is in full force.

[a700hitter]

This is absolutely ridiculous.

 

Theo is a bad manager because our players got injured? ....Sorry Theo didn't make a blockbuster deal at the trade deadline but that doesn't make him a bad GM.

No, what he did wrong was that he built a team with no depth. We were very lucky that we suffered no major injuries in the first half-- Dice K was addition by subtraction. The Yankees suffered several injuries in the first half, but had the depth to endure. When our injuries happened, the lack of depth was obvious, and it might end up being fatal.

 

The person a few people wanted mostly a700 was Beltran which btw is sucking it up at SF and is it just me or has the Giants gotten worse and slipped away from the division?

Beltran's OPS with the Giants is .830 and in September it is 1.190. Neither of those numbers are sucking. Reddick's OPS since the end of July is .717.

[Palodios]

I think you have to give the Yankees credit for scouting these guys and checking them out physically. Now' date=' you want to blame the good luck of your opponent. The whining is in full force.[/quote']

 

Come on now, you must have seen Colon in 2008 when he pitched here. He has everything going wrong against him. Weight issues, injury issues, conditioning issues, personality issues, age. If we signed Cecil Fielder in the offseason, and he magically started hitting again, would you call that depth at DH? No, ofcourse not. Sheer, blindingly bad luck and cheating.

[a700hitter]

Come on now' date=' you must have seen Colon in 2008 when he pitched here. He has everything going wrong against him. Weight issues, injury issues, conditioning issues, personality issues, age. If we signed Cecil Fielder in the offseason, and he magically started hitting again, would you call that depth at DH? No, ofcourse not. Sheer, blindingly bad luck and cheating.[/quote']... and your point is?

[iortiz]

Bartolo Colon is old enough to be a grandfather' date=' and hasn't pitched a full season in several years. There is a zero-- mark that-- zero percent chance they believed he could stay this healthy. Sure, maybe they saw him and thought he could be a good pitcher again, but based on his health and injury history, there is zero, mark that, zero chance they were expecting that.[/quote']

 

Sure, maybe he was a fluke or maybe not, who knows?, but in the end, it doesn't matter.

 

What really matters is the final result, and it is working for Cashman thus far. He is performing solid, that is the fact and is all that matter to 'em.

 

It ain't over, we'll see how it ends. I Hope favorable for the Red Sox despite all these issues, that's for sure.

[Palodios]

... and your point is?

 

My point is that the Yankees had the same amount of depth as the Red Sox. The only difference is luck.

[a700hitter]

Sure, maybe he was a fluke or maybe not, who knows?, but in the end, it doesn't matter.

 

What really matters is the final result, and it is working for Cashman thus far. He is performing solid, that is the fact and is all that matter to 'em.

 

It ain't over, we'll see how it ends. I Hope favorable for the Red Sox despite all these issues, that's for sure.

If the Yanks beat us, we just have to tip our hats to them, because they did a better job of building a deep roster despite several injuries. These whiners give us all a bad name. Maybe the whiners live in the safety and seclusion of New England. I live in NY and I am tired of taking crap because so many of you are poor whining losers. The first excuse is "Oooooohh but we had so many injuries. What could we do?" Once it is pointed out that the Yankess had a bunch of injuries, probably more than the Sox, they say "Yeahhh, but they got lucky with Colon and Garcia. It's not fair. Colon cheats and he's fat." Please do you people hear yourselves. In the words of Don Corleone when he slaps a crying Johnny Fontaine: "Act like a man!" No, offense ladies.

[SoxFanForsyth]

No, what he did wrong was that he built a team with no depth. We were very lucky that we suffered no major injuries in the first half-- Dice K was addition by subtraction. The Yankees suffered several injuries in the first half, but had the depth to endure. When our injuries happened, the lack of depth was obvious, and it might end up being fatal.

 

Beltran's OPS with the Giants is .830 and in September it is 1.190. Neither of those numbers are sucking. Reddick's OPS since the end of July is .717.

 

You expect Theo to be a fortune teller? The Giants gave up a top pitching prospect in their system for Beltran, probably because they intend to re-sign him at the end of the year. You had a .935 OPS right fielder on your team, why would you go out and get Beltran? That makes no sense.

 

And this team HAD depth! How do you not understand this? Aceves, Doubront, Wakefield, Miller, Weiland. You are like iortiz, you guys expect to have legitimate #4 and #5 starters as depth. The problem is, if there are legit #4 and #5 starters, they wouldn't be in AAA unless they are young (Doubront, Weiland). Otherwise, they're playing for another team, pitching every 5 days.

 

And that's not even to mention that there WAS NOBODY available. This is obvious because the Yankees started with a rotation that included Garcia, and Colon was the next in line after Hughes went down.

[iortiz]

My point is that the Yankees had the same amount of depth as the Red Sox. The only difference is luck.

 

Somebody once told me, lucky always favor/assists/grace/promote to the prepared minds.

 

Organizations that manage those tons of money, the concept of lucky is so far away left behind in an overall judgement, trust me.

[a700hitter]

Somebody once told me, lucky always favor/assists/grace/promote to the prepared minds.

 

Organizations that manage those tons of money, the concept of lucky is so far left behind in an overall judgement, trust me.

To quote Branch Rickey, "Luck is the residue of design."

[Meh]

Pence and/or Jimenez

 

Will cost some prospects, you count on that.

 

What would you be offering? Those guys got serious hauls. Jimenez isn't even doing that great right now too.

[iortiz]

If the Yanks beat us' date=' we just have to tip our hats to them, because they did a better job of building a deep roster despite several injuries. These whiners give us all a bad name. Maybe the whiners live in the safety and seclusion of New England. I live in NY and I am tired of taking crap because so many of you are poor whining losers. The first excuse is "Oooooohh but we had so many injuries. What could we do?" Once it is pointed out that the Yankess had a bunch of injuries, probably more than the Sox, they say "Yeahhh, but they got lucky with Colon and Garcia. It's not fair. Colon cheats and he's fat." Please do you people hear yourselves. In the words of Don Corleone when he slaps a crying Johnny Fontaine: "Act like a man!" No, offense ladies.[/quote']

Damn True.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Somebody once told me, lucky always favor/assists/grace/promote to the prepared minds.

 

Organizations that manage those tons of money, the concept of lucky is so far left behind in an overall judgement, trust me.

 

Actually, its pure luck that 1. Colon has lasted this long, and 2. that he's been not just effective, but low 3's ERA effective.

 

The guy had not touched 100 IP since 2005, and threw 70 IP in winter ball. To expect him to be a reliable starter through an entire season would be hideous judgement by the Yankees brass. To expect him to give you a few spot starts when starters went down, that's why they signed him.

 

By the way, the same way they signed Colon, they also signed Mark Prior. If it's not "luck" and it's purely organizational management making a good decision, then why isn't Mark Prior up in the MLB, I mean you've got Burnett sucking wind every start, so why isn't Mark Prior making a big impact like Colon?

 

Plain and simple, they caught lightening in a bottle, and got lucky. That's what teams do with these signings. It was the same thing the Red Sox tried to do with Brad Penny and John Smoltz a couple years ago.