2011 Playoffs for granted?

[SoxFanForsyth]

And like I've said before -

 

All the Red Sox need to do is win against the Orioles while the Rays and Yankees play. If the Rays beat the Yankees, you pick up games on NYY, gaining ground, making the Yanks play the Rays hard in the final series of the season when, oh by the way, the Red Sox are playing the Orioles again. If the Yankees beat the Rays, you pad your lead in the wild card. At the very least, take 3/4 from the Orioles. You're guaranteed to pick up games.

[iortiz]

Going after Jimeniz would have been a huge mistake' date=' and Theo knew it-- Even if you guys believe in having zero farm and just using prospects for trade chips.... those trade chips could be used in considerably better deals down the road (remember last year when everyone was clamoring for trades mid-2010, and Theo had just been saving his cards for gonzo?) Kuroda blatantly said he would not accept a trade, because of his no-trade clause. [b']You guys keep talking like there were so many great options, but there simply weren't any[/b].

 

We definitely will never know, but I would've planned better since the begging.

 

But again, we didn't need a great or fantastic option, just decent.

 

Anyway...Hope that this team can make the POs and why not, make and win the WS despite the poor sport & administrative management.

[Palodios]

We definitely will never know, but I would've planned better since the begging.

 

But again, we didn't need a great or fantastic option, just decent.

 

Anyway...Hope that this team can make the POs and why not, make and win the WS despite the poor sport & administrative management.

 

YOU CAN'T PLAN FOR HAVING 5 OF YOUR TOP 6 PITCHERS TO BE INJURED/INEFFECTIVE, AND THERE WERE NO GOOD OPTIONS AT THE TRADE DEADLINE

 

Are you guys really that idealistic that you think that there is something Theo could have done to magically have a 10 man deep rotation? It simply cannot be done.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Adrian Gonzales quote in the Boston Herald:

 

“The guys on that (Tampa Bay) side want to make a big deal of winning those couple of games and making it closer in the wild card,” Gonzalez said. “At the end of the day, we’re going to win the wild card or the division. It might not be today, because we’ve still got a lot of games left. But maybe by the time we play them next week.”

 

I love it.

[a700hitter]

And like I've said before -

 

All the Red Sox need to do is win against the Orioles while the Rays and Yankees play. If the Rays beat the Yankees, you pick up games on NYY, gaining ground, making the Yanks play the Rays hard in the final series of the season when, oh by the way, the Red Sox are playing the Orioles again. If the Yankees beat the Rays, you pad your lead in the wild card. At the very least, take 3/4 from the Orioles. You're guaranteed to pick up games.

Then why is Davis Ortiz panicking?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Then why is Davis Ortiz panicking?

 

You mean the same guy who panicked about 1 RBI being taken from him. So bad so that he interrupted a Francona during a presser?

[Meh]

BTW...

 

The best managers are who plan, forecast and anticipate better = predict better the future and deliver better results with the resouses and budget available.

 

This is not Theo's case, at least last season and 2011? We'll see. Look at NY or TB, they are covered somehow...the rich one is deploying behind of tons of money (like us) and didn't even make a move before the trade deadline because they thought that planned just well since the begging... and the other? has been working its farm system very nice.

 

You made moves though... You got Bedard and Alivies. What moves would you of liked? Beltran? He cost a top SP prospect, something you don't have.

[yankees228]

The critical difference is that the Yankees took those fliers on retreads right at the beginning of the season. If they didn't work out' date=' they had plenty of time to go in another direction. For the Sox, the flier on Bedard was their last ditch effort.[/quote']

 

That's true, although before the season the Red Sox had no reason to take fliers on players. And at the Trade Deadline there just wasn't a whole lot of good options.

[iortiz]

Pal, We WERE NOT and certainly ARE NOT depth in our rotation. That is my point.

 

We began with

 

Beckett (who was coming from injuries and a terrible 2010 season)

Lester (ok, although he always get injured at some point)

Buch (nice pitcher but IMO still a rookie and now out)

Lackey (give you that, but somehow I saw this coming, not this bad BTW)

D-K (he was done at that point, he has been a permanent DL resident)

6th who is he? Wake? You must be kidding me.

 

That was the scenario...

 

And that is it. Where is your depth in your rotation?, Please show me, because I don't see it.

[iortiz]

You made moves though... You got Bedard and Alivies. What moves would you of liked? Beltran? He cost a top SP prospect' date=' something you don't have.[/quote']

 

Pence and/or Jimenez

 

Will cost some prospects, you count on that.

[yankees228]

I don't see how someone could honestly say that the Sox should have went after Jimenez, even if you think they had the prospects to get a deal done.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Pal' date=' We [b'] WERE NOT[/b] and certainly ARE NOT depth in our rotation. That is my point.

 

We began with

 

Beckett (who was coming from injuries and a terrible 2010 season)

Lester (ok, although he always get injured at some point)

Buch (nice pitcher but IMO still a rookie and now out)

Lackey (give you that, but somehow I saw this coming, not this bad BTW)

D-K (he was done at this point, he has been a permanent DL resident)

6th who is he? Wake? You must be kidding me.

 

That was the scenario...

 

And that is it. Where is your depth in your rotation?, Please show me, because I don't see it.

 

Actually, that's not true at all. At the beginning of the season, we went with:

 

Beckett

Lester

Buchholz

Lackey

DiceK

 

Aceves

Wakefield

Doubront

Miller

Weiland

Millwood (FA Signing)

 

 

If Jenks, Dennys Reyes, Okajima, Rich Hill, and Tommy Hottovy didn't all suck so bad/get hurt (Hill), then Aceves would be a SP right now. But our bullpen sucks without Aceves there, so he stopped being an option.

 

So now look at that rotation. Over the past 13 games, let's look at each player:

 

Beckett (injured)

Lester

Buchholz (injured)

Lackey (ineffective)

DiceK (injured)

Bedard (injured)

 

Aceves (bullpen)

Wakefield (ineffectve)

Doubront (bullpen)

Miller (ineffective)

Weiland (ineffective)

Millwood (released)

 

So it's not like Theo didn't give us depth. He gave the team plenty of depth, but the fliers he took didn't work.

 

Again. Look at the Rays #7 starter. He's started 4 games and has a 7.98 ERA. Show me one team that has a #8, #9, and #10 starter who are effective. You can't, and do you know why? Because if they are effective starters, they will be #4's and #5's for a team and playing at the MLB level.

[Scottish Red Sox Fan]

Aargghhh!!

 

What's going on? The baseballing gods seem to be conspiring against us.

 

Injuries can sink even the most steadfast of baseballing ships. That is what appears to be happening to the Red Sox right now. It is almost like death by a thousand cuts. Our roster was deep and it was talented enough to withstand more injuries than most team's rosters could have handled but I feel as though even we are reaching breaking point now.

 

Just look at the pitching..........

 

Beckett out

Buccholz out

Lackey been out

Matsuzaka out

Jenks out

Hill out

 

That's a hell of a lot of pitching for a team to lose. Hell, we even brought in another starting pitcher to help cover our injury crisis, Erik Bedard, and now he's out too! Even though the injuries have come at different times they can still de-rail a team and stuff momentum. The fact that all 6 of those guys are currently unavailable/questionable is a huge headache. Youk's inability to stay consistently healthy is also worrying.

 

I feel so frustrated right now. All year long I've had a good feeling about this team and felt that we were going deep into the play-offs MINIMUM. Now my confidence is wavering. All is not lost - far from it - but I have to be honest and say this is the least optimistic I have felt all season long about the Red Sox chances of winning the WS.

[iortiz]

I don't see how someone could honestly say that the Sox should have went after Jimenez' date=' even if you think they had the prospects to get a deal done.[/quote']

 

Why not? he is better than Lackey, Miller, D-K, Weiland and Wake combined.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Pence and/or Jimenez

 

Will cost some prospects, you count on that.

 

Guardians offered more for Jimenez than Sox had. They had no chance. That's like you having $10 and me saying "Why can't you give me $20?"

 

And Sox didn't go after Pence because we had a guy hitting .331 with a .935 in Reddick. Why would you sell the farm to replace that?

[Palodios]

Pal' date=' We [b'] WERE NOT[/b] and certainly ARE NOT depth in our rotation. That is my point.

 

We began with

 

Beckett (who was coming from injuries and a terrible 2010 season)

Lester (ok, although he always get injured at some point)

Buch (nice pitcher but IMO still a rookie and now out)

Lackey (give you that, but somehow I saw this coming, not this bad BTW)

D-K (he was done at that point, he has been a permanent DL resident)

6th who is he? Wake? You must be kidding me.

That was the scenario...

 

And that is it. Where is your depth in your rotation?, Please show me, because I don't see it.

 

How about Felix Doubront, the promising young lefty who never allowed more than 3 ER in any of the three starts when he pitched in 2010? You know, the one this organization was counting on as depth before he pretty much lost the whole season, and the one I mentioned three times in prior posts?

 

Welcome to my ignore list.

[SoxFanForsyth]

How about Felix Doubront, the promising young lefty who never allowed more than 3 ER in any of the three starts when he pitched in 2010? You know, the one this organization was counting on as depth before he pretty much lost the whole season, and the one I mentioned three times in prior posts?

 

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

Don't worry Pal. I got your back. People just want to blame this bad streak of games on someone. Nothing Theo could have done differently.

[iortiz]

Actually, that's not true at all. At the beginning of the season, we went with:

 

Beckett Red Light

Lester Green Light

Buchholz Yellow Light

Lackey Red Light

DiceK Super Red Light

 

Aceves

Wakefield

Doubront

Miller

Weiland

Millwood (FA Signing)

 

 

If Jenks, Dennys Reyes, Okajima, Rich Hill, and Tommy Hottovy didn't all suck so bad/get hurt (Hill), then Aceves would be a SP right now. But our bullpen sucks without Aceves there, so he stopped being an option.

 

So now look at that rotation. Over the past 13 games, let's look at each player:

 

Beckett (injured)

Lester

Buchholz (injured)

Lackey (ineffective)

DiceK (injured and ineffective)

Bedard (injured)

 

Aceves (bullpen)

Wakefield (ineffectve)

Doubront (bullpen)

Miller (ineffective)

Weiland (ineffective)

Millwood (released)

 

So it's not like Theo didn't give us depth. He gave the team plenty of depth, but the fliers he took didn't work.

 

Again. Look at the Rays #7 starter. He's started 4 games and has a 7.98 ERA. Show me one team that has a #8, #9, and #10 starter who are effective. You can't, and do you know why? Because if they are effective starters, they will be #4's and #5's for a team and playing at the MLB level.

 

Fixed

 

Again, a lot of red and yellow lights were there in the beginning, agree? If yes? Where is your depth and solid rotation? Regardless a possible injury could come like is happening at this point

[Palodios]

Don't worry Pal. I got your back. People just want to blame this bad streak of games on someone. Nothing Theo could have done differently.

 

Thanks SFF. Some of this nonsense gets under my skin sometime..

[Palodios]

Fixed

 

Again, a lot of red and yellow lights were there in the beginning, agree? If yes? Where is your depth and solid rotation? Regardless a possible injury could come like is happening at this point

 

Buchholz is a yellow light? He was top 5 in the Cy Young conversation in 2010.

[jacksonianmarch]

The only yellow light on Buch was the fact that last yr was truly his first full yr in the bigs. Lots of second yr guys wore down this yr. Matusz, Cecil, Hughes, and Buchholz all either lost their velocity or had wear and tear kind of injuries ruin their years.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Fixed

 

Again, a lot of red and yellow lights were there in the beginning, agree? If yes? Where is your depth and solid rotation? Regardless a possible injury could come like is happening at this point

 

Felix Doubront: 4.11 ERA as a starter (3 starts) in 2010 at the age of 22. He was projected to be a very good starter at the MLB level. Injuries hurt him this year. And he's still only 23.

 

Aceves: Career 3.21 ERA while pitching in the AL East. He should be in the rotation right now, but he's so incredibly valuable out of the bullpen. Still, though, with the rotation in the state it's in, he should be starting games.

 

Wakefield: Spot starter who can give you 6-7 IP of 3-4 ER baseball. Not meant to be an ace, and not meant to throw more than 95 IP. Again, a spot starter.

 

Miller/Weiland: Crushed it in AAA, but his stuff isn't playing well in MLB. But regardless, he's #9/10 on the depth chart.

 

The Sox had their 1-5, and then had 2 pitchers in Aceves and Doubront who were very dependable and had good track records. They had Wakefield who can give them innings in spot starts.

 

What it boils down to is this. You expect our #8-10 pitchers to be able to go out and throw 7 IP and allow 3-4 ER. That's not the case. That's not the case for the Red Sox or any other team. If we had pitchers who could do that, they would be throwing for other teams every 5th day.

 

Your expectations are too high for the depth of the pitching rotation, plain and simple.

[iortiz]

The only yellow light on Buch was the fact that last yr was truly his first full yr in the bigs. Lots of second yr guys wore down this yr. Matusz' date=' Cecil, Hughes, and Buchholz all either lost their velocity or had wear and tear kind of injuries ruin their years.[/quote']

 

Exactly. That was my point.

[a700hitter]

How about Felix Doubront, the promising young lefty who never allowed more than 3 ER in any of the three starts when he pitched in 2010? You know, the one this organization was counting on as depth before he pretty much lost the whole season, and the one I mentioned three times in prior posts?

 

Welcome to my ignore list.

Dubront's injury problems started in spring training. Once his health became an issue, they should have looked elsewhere for depth.

 

It is surprising the change from the rah rah rah confidence that they wouldn't collapse to the excuse mentality. If they win, there will be no need for excuses. I guess , a lot of you are not that confident anymore. The signs were all there. You had to be blind not to see them. At this point, the Sox can still hang on, but it is notgoing to be easy to stop this train from going off the cliff.

 

When they go off the cliff, there are no excuses. Excuses are for whiny losers. I hate whiny losers. Lose like men. No offense ladies.

[SoxFanForsyth]

And how was Lackey a Red Light?? He threw over 210 IP, won 14 games and posted a 4.40 ERA. His 2nd half, he posted a 3.96 ERA. Do you expect us to have a rotation of 5 sub-3.50 ERA pitchers? The 4 and 5 pitchers are meant to eat innings and keep you in the game. They're not, by any means, supposed to be top of the rotation starters, regardless of how Francona lined it up in the beginning of the season.

 

And Buchholz was as green as the light gets. 2.33 ERA? Come on man.

[iortiz]

 

Your expectations are too high for the depth of the pitching rotation, plain and simple.

 

Definitely :harhar:

[Palodios]

The only yellow light on Buch was the fact that last yr was truly his first full yr in the bigs. Lots of second yr guys wore down this yr. Matusz' date=' Cecil, Hughes, and Buchholz all either lost their velocity or had wear and tear kind of injuries ruin their years.[/quote']

 

The argument is about building depth, so complaining about Buch, who had no injury concerns at the time, is silly. Even if he ended up being a low 4.00 ERA guy, that would have been acceptable.

[jacksonianmarch]

Felix Doubront: 4.11 ERA as a starter (3 starts) in 2010 at the age of 22. He was projected to be a very good starter at the MLB level. Injuries hurt him this year. And he's still only 23.

 

Aceves: Career 3.21 ERA while pitching in the AL East. He should be in the rotation right now, but he's so incredibly valuable out of the bullpen. Still, though, with the rotation in the state it's in, he should be starting games.

 

Wakefield: Spot starter who can give you 6-7 IP of 3-4 ER baseball. Not meant to be an ace, and not meant to throw more than 95 IP. Again, a spot starter.

 

Miller/Weiland: Crushed it in AAA, but his stuff isn't playing well in MLB. But regardless, he's #9/10 on the depth chart.

 

The Sox had their 1-5, and then had 2 pitchers in Aceves and Doubront who were very dependable and had good track records. They had Wakefield who can give them innings in spot starts.

 

What it boils down to is this. You expect our #8-10 pitchers to be able to go out and throw 7 IP and allow 3-4 ER. That's not the case. That's not the case for the Red Sox or any other team. If we had pitchers who could do that, they would be throwing for other teams every 5th day.

 

Your expectations are too high for the depth of the pitching rotation, plain and simple.

 

You cannot replace an ace when they go down, just ask the Cardinals. The Yanks prepared this season with 6 starters. We lost one for a long time, but he's back. Another one fell off the map come August. The rest are still pumping out quality starts. With this offense, that's all you need. The sox lost their #3 and #5 starters, their #4 is now the worst pitcher in baseball, their #6 got really old real quick and lost the flutterball, the #1 missed a few starts, they acquired the guy we'd call a #7 and he's out, they had to turn to #8 and #9 down the stretch as well. Doubront got hurt and is now a pen arm. Basically, their #1 and #2 has somewhat healthy yrs. After that, it's been a mess. This isnt Theo's doing. This is just s*** luck

[SoxFanForsyth]

Dubront's injury problems started in spring training. Once his health became an issue, they should have looked elsewhere for depth.

 

It is surprising the change from the rah rah rah confidence that they wouldn't collapse to the excuse mentality. If they win, there will be no need for excuses. I guess , a lot of you are not that confident anymore. The signs were all there. You had to be blind not to see them. At this point, the Sox can still hang on, but it is notgoing to be easy to stop this train from going off the cliff.

 

When they go off the cliff, there are no excuses. Excuses are for whiny losers. I hate whiny losers. Lose like men. No offense ladies.

 

To me, it seems like you and iortiz are the ones making excuses. Blaming the FO for not getting someone at the deadline/building more depth. The fact remains, there was nothing there. You want to scoop some 4.50 ERA, 180 IP pitcher out of this invisible bucket but there was no SP to be found.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You cannot replace an ace when they go down' date=' just ask the Cardinals. The Yanks prepared this season with 6 starters. We lost one for a long time, but he's back. Another one fell off the map come August. The rest are still pumping out quality starts. With this offense, that's all you need. The sox lost their #3 and #5 starters, their #4 is now the worst pitcher in baseball, their #6 got really old real quick and lost the flutterball, the #1 missed a few starts, they acquired the guy we'd call a #7 and he's out, they had to turn to #8 and #9 down the stretch as well. Doubront got hurt and is now a pen arm. Basically, their #1 and #2 has somewhat healthy yrs. After that, it's been a mess. This isnt Theo's doing. This is just s*** luck[/quote']

 

Did you quote me on accident? I feel like you're arguing with me, not against me. But by quoting me, it looks like you're arguing against me. :dunno: