2011 Trade Deadline Thread

[a700hitter]

I'm not asking you to educate me. I'm asking for access to the information' date=' information that you have brought to the table, that has shaped the last page of discussion. I'm willing to admit anything is possible, but I'd like to read the evaluation myself. Is that too much to ask?[/quote']I'd gladly post it, but I'd have to research it again. Not all the reports on him are so glowing. The kid is pretty raw. I read in at least one spot that he was an enigma, because he was very highly ranked before he ever threw a professional pitch. Maybe the Giants knew him better than the prospect evaluators who were ranking him very high with no track record.

 

Edit: Keep in mind that the post in question was made about a month after the trade was made, so I hadn't looked at the source in more than a month.

[Palodios]

I'd gladly post it' date=' but I'd have to research it again. Not all the reports on him are so glowing. The kid is pretty raw. I read in at least one spot that he was an enigma, because he was very highly ranked before he ever threw a professional pitch. Maybe the Giants knew him better than the prospect evaluators who were ranking him very high with no track record.[/quote']

 

Or maybe he was a good prospect, and they simply gave him up because they needed a boost to their offense. And Beltran turned out to be a complete failure for their organization.

 

You know, the logical explanation.

[jacksonianmarch]

Wheeler is a high ceiling kid who was their top pitching prospect and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball. Dealing him for a rental that wont have a FA Type status was dumb.

[a700hitter]

Or maybe he was a good prospect, and they simply gave him up because they needed a boost to their offense. And Beltran turned out to be a complete failure for their organization.

 

You know, the logical explanation.

I didn't realize that it would be illogical for the Giants to keep their best prospects and part with a prospect, who they may have determined internally wasn't going to progress although he was highly ranked. It's called selling high. Let me state again for you since you seem to have missed it in my prior posts. I have no position on this kid. I'm just noting that as of this season his reviews were not universally glowing.

[a700hitter]

Wheeler is a high ceiling kid who was their top pitching prospect and one of the top pitching prospects in baseball. Dealing him for a rental that wont have a FA Type status was dumb.

He went to the Mets organization. There's a good chance that ... Well, ... he becomes a Met.

[Palodios]

I didn't realize that it would be illogical for the Giants to keep their best prospects and part with a prospect' date=' [b']who they may have determined internally wasn't going to progress although he was highly ranked[/b]. It's called selling high. Let me state again for you since you seem to have missed it in my prior posts. I have no position on this kid. I'm just noting that as of this season his reviews were not universally glowing.

 

This is pure speculation. You know absolutely nothing about the kid, and are biased against him because you were so interested in Beltran.

[a700hitter]

Even when he has not been injured, he has not produced since the trade. He has had more than 80 at bats with the Giants and is OPSing under .300. He has one homerun. At that rate over a whole season he'd have less than ten.

In August since the trade, he batted .300 with a .773 OPS-- not bad for a guy with an injured hand.

 

Reddick was healthy in August and he batted .208 with a .603 OPS.

[a700hitter]

This is pure speculation. You know absolutely nothing about the kid' date=' and are biased against him because you were so interested in Beltran.[/quote']It wasn't my speculation. Again, I have no position on the kid.

 

See my numerous quotes below:

 

For all the talk about SF giving up a top prospect to get Beltran' date=' [b']I had read[/b] that the guy was close to falling out of prospect status for the Giants.

 

I am just relating what I read about him on a site before he was traded. I've never seen the guy pitch, so i don't know.

 

I was just pointing out to those who think the Mets scored a big prospect that there is another point of view about the guy. It's not my point of view. As I said earlier, I never followed the kid's career and I have never seen him pitch.

 

Look for it yourself. It's out there, and that's all I was saying. I didn't say that I agreed with it. I never followed or watched the kid. I just pointed out that it was out there.

 

Let me state again for you since you seem to have missed it in my prior posts. I have no position on this kid. I'm just noting that as of this season his reviews were not universally glowing.

 

How many more times do I have to say it. I think it is pretty clear what I am saying, but you apparently have interpreted another meaning. That's not my problem.

 

Emmz, I understand your frustration. Pal, ORS Spitball and others you can take the last word telling me what I mean. I already said it very clearly and often.

 

:dunno:

[Palodios]

It wasn't my speculation. Again, I have no position on the kid.

 

You have time and time again criticized the FO for not getting another outfielder, and your (and my own) number one choice Beltran has been a bad trade for the Giants. You have then argued for one mystery scouting report, which contradicts about a thousand other scouting reports that say glowing things about him, and claim him to be one of the best pitching prospects in baseball.

 

That's where this confusion has come from, being able to differentiate between your opinion, and the opinion of a random scout that you happened to be defending pretty strongly. Do not blame me for mistaking a position you're defending with a position that is your own.

[jacksonianmarch]

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=554430

 

21, throws smoke, strikes out the world and has a lights out slidepiece. The kid is good, needs to work on the walks a bit.

[a700hitter]

You have time and time again criticized the FO for not getting another outfielder, and your (and my own) number one choice Beltran has been a bad trade for the Giants. You have then argued for one mystery scouting report, which contradicts about a thousand other scouting reports that say glowing things about him, and claim him to be one of the best pitching prospects in baseball.

 

That's where this confusion has come from, being able to differentiate between your opinion, and the opinion of a random scout that you happened to be defending pretty strongly. Do not blame me for mistaking a position you're defending with a position that is your own.

I said that I would give you the last word, but you should understand that my criticizing the FO for not getting another OF and evaluating the Giants' trade are two separate issues. I'm not looking to justify their trade or not. I really don't care. IMO, it's just stupid to fault a GM based on the guy getting a random injury for which he has had no history. And I still want an OF upgrade. Two separate issues.

 

Let me tell you what I think you think since you constantly tell me what I think. I think you want to think that Wheeler is a prime "can't miss" prospect so you can feel better about Theo not getting the Sox a RF which they desperately need. That's annoying isn't it?

 

I don't care if Wheeler turns out to be Lincecum, it will not make me feel any better about our RF situation and it will not make me less critical of the FO regarding the issue.

[Palodios]

I think you want to think that Wheeler is a prime "can't miss" prospect so you can feel better about Theo not getting the Sox a RF which they desperately need.That's annoying isn't it?

 

I don't find it annoying at all. You know what I think, because I say what I think. If this team had a better RF, we would not have seen Burnett turn a 11.90 ERA in August to a 1.50 ERA in September. I also think that when you have a shot at the world series, you don't skimp on trades, and let guys like Pence, Beltran, and Bourn go to your competitors while you're trotting out Mcdonald into the oufielder three days a week because you want to save prospects that won't amount to anything. You and I agree on this.

 

But the way you went about trying to educate us on Wheeler's potential for failure seems very biased. And that's the point I was arguing. You've taken a very strong position that you have no opinion on the matter, yet you seem resistant to the posibility that he could turn into elite talent, and that the trade was a huge mistake, even if that happens to be in hindsight.

[ORS]

 

I don't care if Wheeler turns out to be Lincecum, it will not make me feel any better about our RF situation and it will not make me less critical of the FO regarding the issue.

No, you are right, however Wheeler turns out for the Mets will not improve the 2011 Red Sox in RF.

 

That said, I would think the failure of the Beltran trade for the Giants would at least provide some reasonable restraint of those criticisms. Right now, it's a zero sum game, Theo's move to play Reddick hasn't worked out, acquiring Beltran, the move you supported, hasn't worked out for the team that got him, which just goes to show that there aren't any hard/fast right courses of action in these things. The potential for failure dominates these personnel decisions, and, as such, should mitigate some of the criticisms.

[Emmz]

It wasn't my speculation. Again, I have no position on the kid.

 

See my numerous quotes below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How many more times do I have to say it. I think it is pretty clear what I am saying, but you apparently have interpreted another meaning. That's not my problem.

 

Emmz, I understand your frustration. Pal, ORS Spitball and others you can take the last word telling me what I mean. I already said it very clearly and often.

 

:dunno:

 

 

It's like a replay of a couple weeks ago. Palo's involved in this one too, think we've got a common factor.

[a700hitter]

No, you are right, however Wheeler turns out for the Mets will not improve the 2011 Red Sox in RF.

 

That said, I would think the failure of the Beltran trade for the Giants would at least provide some reasonable restraint of those criticisms. Right now, it's a zero sum game, Theo's move to play Reddick hasn't worked out, acquiring Beltran, the move you supported, hasn't worked out for the team that got him, which just goes to show that there aren't any hard/fast right courses of action in these things. The potential for failure dominates these personnel decisions, and, as such, should mitigate some of the criticisms.

Even the injured Beltran has been better in August than Reddick by a substantial margin and I think that will continue in September. If Beltran was too expensive for Theo's tastes, there were other options. If he had pulled the trigger on Beltran, and Beltran died the next day in a paddle boat accident in the Boston Commons, I would not be criticizing Theo.

[Palodios]

It's like a replay of a couple weeks ago. Palo's involved in this one too' date=' think we've got a common factor.[/quote']

 

[Emmz]

I'm glad you've got a good sense of humor, Palo.

[ORS]

Even the injured Beltran has been better in August than Reddick by a substantial margin and I think that will continue in September. If Beltran was too expensive for Theo's tastes' date=' there were other options. [b']If he had pulled the trigger on Beltran, and Beltran died the next day in a paddle boat accident in the Boston Commons, I would not be criticizing Theo[/b].

Probably so, but only after you investigated if he had any involvement in the accident.

[Spitball]

I didn't realize that it would be illogical for the Giants to keep their best prospects and part with a prospect' date=' who they may have determined internally wasn't going to progress although he was highly ranked. It's called selling high. Let me state again for you since you seem to have missed it in my prior posts. I have no position on this kid. I'm just noting that as of this season his reviews were not universally glowing.[/quote']

 

Actually, I have not read anything negative about Wheeler other than his developing control. The kid was the Giants' number one in 2009 and there isn't a team in baseball that has done a better job of drafting and developing young pitchers.

 

In August since the trade, he batted .300 with a .773 OPS-- not bad for a guy with an injured hand.

 

Beltran has five extra base hits since joining the Giants. That is fewer than Reddick has had in the same time and some slap hitting middle infielders. And don't use the hand excuse because I understand he has fully recovered.

[a700hitter]

.Beltran has five extra base hits since joining the Giants. That is fewer than Reddick has had in the same time and some slap hitting middle infielders. And don't use the hand excuse because I understand he has fully recovered.

If Beltran's hand is fully healed, his September performance should leave Reddick in the dust. Taking into account that Beltran's August OPS is about 170 points higher than Reddick's, the fact that he has fewer extra base hits must be attriibutable to the time he missed do to the hand injury.

[a700hitter]

Probably so' date=' but only after you investigated if he had any involvement in the accident. [/quote']

If it was Theo's paddle boat, I'd probably blame him. Lol!

[Spitball]

... the fact that he has fewer extra base hits must be attriibutable to the time he missed do to the hand injury.

 

Nope, if you'd check rather than rant excuses, you'd realize they have almost exactly the same number at bats. If you total in platoon partners, the Sox right fielders have twice as many extra base hits as Beltran.

 

You keep trying to defend your opinion that the Sox should gotten Beltran (you claimed it would take just a willingness to take on contract) when they should have targeted, if anyone, Hunter Pence instead.

[Spitball]

Nope, if you'd check rather than rant excuses, you'd realize they have almost exactly the same number at bats. If you total in platoon partners, the Sox right fielders have twice as many extra base hits as Beltran.

 

You keep trying to defend your opinion that the Sox should gotten Beltran (you claimed it would take just a willingness to take on contract) when they should have targeted, if anyone, Hunter Pence instead.

 

Or a starting pitcher beyond Bedard. They are first or second in almost every offensive category as it is.

[a700hitter]

Nope, if you'd check rather than rant excuses, you'd realize they have almost exactly the same number at bats. If you total in platoon partners, the Sox right fielders have twice as many extra base hits as Beltran.

 

You keep trying to defend your opinion that the Sox should gotten Beltran (you claimed it would take just a willingness to take on contract) when they should have targeted, if anyone, Hunter Pence instead.

Dutchy unmasked,

[a700hitter]

Nope' date=' if you'd check rather than rant excuses, you'd realize they have almost exactly the same number at bats. If you total in platoon partners, the Sox right fielders have twice as many extra base hits as Beltran. [/quote']No excuses are needed when there is a 170 point difference in OPS in Beltran's favor.

[Spitball]

Dutchy unmasked' date=' [/quote']

 

Is this a marijuana reference? What have you been doing tonight?

[a700hitter]

Is this a marijuana reference? What have you been doing tonight?

Nah, I'm on to you. The Frank Malzone story never fooled me, nor did your temperamental exit.

[Spitball]

Nah' date=' I'm on to you. The Frank Malzone story never fooled me, nor did your temperamental exit.[/quote']

 

What are you talking about? I vaguely remember a Frank Malzone story (Oh, what a play by Malzone!) but have no memory of a temperamental exit. I did make a trip to Massachusetts without my laptop but there wasn't anything temperamental about it.

 

Please explain.

[Spitball]

Btw, a dutchy is a marijuana cigarette packed into a small cigar.

[Palodios]

No excuses are needed when there is a 170 point difference in OPS in Beltran's favor.

 

Reddick's defense in RF has been absolutely excellent, as far as the numbers show. Beltran, not so much.