Red Sox Catching

[MJantomaso]

Catching Wake back in 98 probably didnt help Tek's defensive stats.

[MJantomaso]

As a DH maybe.

 

Why wouldn't he be at Catcher?

[italstallianion]

Why wouldn't he be at Catcher?

 

 

Because there's a reason why he's called Ryan "No-Mitt" Doumit. The Pirates have been using him a lot in the OF.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Lester and Buchholz were both in the top 5 of AL starters last year' date=' and Lackey is motivated like fire right now. I can fully admit to over-relying on catcher ERA, but can you really say Salty is [i']good[/i] at calling a game? I don't like what I'm seeing from him, in any part of his game, and I'm not seeing any scouting reports, minor league numbers or anything that really changes my opinion. What are you and Theo seeing that I'm not?

 

I'm not saying he's a great game caller right now, but I think with experience both with our pitching staff and in the league, along with mentoring from Varitek, he could become a great game caller. The reason his CERA is high this year is because he's got no idea what these pitchers want to throw. Pitchers thrive on rhythm, which is why Tek has such a low CERA, he's always on the same page with the pitchers, and that's because he's worked so long with the pitchers and against the league. He knows what pitch to call, how to set up the hitters, the hitters weaknesses, etc. That's all stuff that doesn't just come overnight.

 

I'm not trying to defend Salty to the point where I'm hard headed about making a change. I just know that there are really not many options left. I mean you think Doumit, well he's a catcher in the NL who has never caught in the AL, doesn't know the AL East, doesn't know our pitchers, and he has a career 4.92 CERA in the NL East. Salty has a career 4.69 CERA, so is it really an upgrade, especially since the biggest concern with Salty is his defense? Salty can hit, that will come around, he may not be a 20 HR, .280 hitter, but he'll be a 12-14 HR, .260 hitter, which is fine in this line up.

 

All I'm saying is let him get acclimated to the pitching staff before we replace him. You wouldn't dump a girl because cooked you something that you didn't like on the 2nd date, let Salty get to know these pitchers and then we can make judgements.

[MJantomaso]

Because there's a reason why he's called Ryan "No-Mitt" Doumit. The Pirates have been using him a lot in the OF.

 

Catching defense can be fixed with time and work. I'm sure Tek can fix a few things in his receiving. The dude is a stud. Not to mention hes got a nice redsox beard.

[Dojji]

What are you and Theo seeing that I'm not?

 

What we're seeing is demonstrated potential, which is at least a match for Varitek's.

 

A little secret for your consideration: Varitek, while he has decent tools, was never an elite defensive catcher until he learned how to use them. The Jason Varitek who spent those first couple years platooning with Hatteberg is not the Jason Varitek we saw in his prime. He had to learn some things to get there from here. He was 3-4 years older than Salty is now before you can really say with any certainty that he got it all down. Before then he had a reputation for actually being a bit of a butcher behind the plate, being a relatively poor receiver and defender generally (he frequently DH'd over a guy who never caught again after he left), and made up for it with half decent switch hitting offense.

 

Salty's arm is maybe not as accurate as Tek's was perhaps, but he's got all the talents Tek had and a reputation as a good hard worker. but it's going to take time -- years, probably -- for him to get it down and become the kind of real top flight pro he has in him, and fans are going to have to buckle down and actually show a trace amount of that vanishingly rare Boston sports fan virtue -- actual, genuine PATIENCE -- with the kid while he works his way through it.

 

Oh, and the other thing we see is that we could score Saltalamacchia for a mid tier prospect. A fairly cheap, efficient acquisition of a young talent with upside is about the best way to go if you want a shot at keeping a good team on the field in the majors without destroying your ability to generate young cost-controlled talent in the minors.

 

With elite catching being a practically unobtainable commodity, (I can't think of a single current MLB catcher not named Brian McCann who can do all three of Hit, Defend and Stay On The Field) anything someone else has developed is either not going to be available at all, or is going to be nearly as flawed as Salty without half the upside if it is. We got about as close as we could using big market muscle with VMart and it got us exactly nowhere. Going young is the best answer even if it doesn't bear immediate fruit, and if you're going to go young, a once highly touted catching prospect that is still on the young side makes a lot of sense.

 

What it's going to take to get on the right side of the catching equation again isn't a trade -- that's incredibly unlikely given the state of the farm -- or even a FA signing (any real great quality catcher is going the be the first guy other teams free up money to keep). It's going to take picking up or developing a young talent with some potential, playing them in the major league for a few years -- yes, I said A FEW YEARS -- and letting them learn the business. We're used to being able to take big market shortcuts, and that's a habit we get to unlearn when it comes to catchers, because when it comes to catching those shortcuts tend to either not exist at all or be prohibitively inefficient.

[italstallianion]

Catching defense can be fixed with time and work. I'm sure Tek can fix a few things in his receiving. The dude is a stud. Not to mention hes got a nice redsox beard.

 

 

I don't know dude, some things you have or you don't, and I don't think that Doumit is a fixable case, especially if the Red Sox don't have the staff expertise to fix him. I mean if the Red Sox can't fix Salty (if) then how will they fix Doumit? It doesn't make sense.

[Palodios]

I'm not trying to defend Salty to the point where I'm hard headed about making a change. I just know that there are really not many options left. I mean you think Doumit, well he's a catcher in the NL who has never caught in the AL, doesn't know the AL East, doesn't know our pitchers, and he has a career 4.92 CERA in the NL East. Salty has a career 4.69 CERA, so is it really an upgrade, especially since the biggest concern with Salty is his defense? Salty can hit, that will come around, he may not be a 20 HR, .280 hitter, but he'll be a 12-14 HR, .260 hitter, which is fine in this line up.

 

All I'm saying is let him get acclimated to the pitching staff before we replace him. You wouldn't dump a girl because cooked you something that you didn't like on the 2nd date, let Salty get to know these pitchers and then we can make judgements.

 

Citing Doumit's CERA in Pittsburgh is a little unfair:lol:

 

I actually mentioned a similar line to your prediction of 12 HR/.260 hitting. And while I agree that those kind of numbers would be acceptable, those are not the kind of numbers that you patiently wait for while a guy struggles for months. Its one thing if a guy has a great potential, but Salty's ceiling seems extremely low for the amount he's hurting this team.

[MJantomaso]

I don't know dude' date=' some things you have or you don't, and I don't think that Doumit is a fixable case, especially if the Red Sox don't have the staff expertise to fix him. I mean if the Red Sox can't fix Salty (if) then how will they fix Doumit? It doesn't make sense.[/quote']

 

Victor Martinez was ranked one of the worst defensive catchers and look what he did for this team last year.

 

I'm sure if he came to the sox there would be a spike in performance. Surround the man with talent then rate his game.

[DirtDog]

Can anyone confirm for me that the DH can only hit for the pitcher? We should have him hit for Varitek, and then let Beckett bat.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Citing Doumit's CERA in Pittsburgh is a little unfair:lol:

 

I actually mentioned a similar line to your prediction of 12 HR/.260 hitting. And while I agree that those kind of numbers would be acceptable, those are not the kind of numbers that you patiently wait for while a guy struggles for months. Its one thing if a guy has a great potential, but Salty's ceiling seems extremely low for the amount he's hurting this team.

 

I agree those aren't necessarily star studded numbers, but as Dojji mentioned, what is out there and available right now that trumps Salty? I mean you've got Bengie Molina, great defensive catcher but we'd be lucky to get a .205 average out of him. You've got Doumit who can rake but he can't call a game or catch. Montero is a good option but 1. he would cost a ton and 2. he's coming off an injury. You've got Pudge, who is as fragile as Tek and would be a stop gap, but who is going to take his place next year?

 

I think what Dojji said is exactly right. As bad as it sucks, we need to show some patience with Salty. I truly believe that he will come around and be an above average catcher, he just needs a little time, definitely more than 14 games. I really think that if we were 13-8 right now, and Crawford was hitting, this wouldn't be as big of an issue. Theo has loved this guy for a while, and he's one of the best young-talent evaluators I've seen, as shown by how well he drafts.

 

Think about this. When Craw starts hitting, Tito said he likes Crawford in the 3 slot. That means our line up will be:

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Crawford

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Lowrie

Salty

Drew

 

You can flip flop Salty and Drew, I like having Drew in the 9 hole because of his OBP and he can turn over the line up a good % of the time. Either way - when our offense is clicking, we have ONE hole. And that's Salty. So when we start clicking, we can hide his bat a little bit and take some pressure off of him and give him a fair shot.

[MJantomaso]

^^ Imagine the lineup minus Salty adding Doumit

[Palodios]

The Jason Varitek who spent those first couple years platooning with Hatteberg is not the Jason Varitek we saw in his prime. [/Quote]

 

This team never intended to platoon Salty. He was supposed to be full-time, and that is part of the problem. As you said, Varitek started as a platoon player and earned the spot. Salty has played like a platoon player and was gifted the spot.

 

With elite catching being a practically unobtainable commodity, (I can't think of a single current MLB catcher not named Brian McCann who can do all three of Hit, Defend and Stay On The Field) [/Quote]

 

Catchers are going to miss time. I just want one of these two things: offense or defense. I'm not asking for both, I'm asking for one. Salty gives us neither.

 

We're used to being able to take big market shortcuts, and that's a habit we get to unlearn when it comes to catchers, because when it comes to catching those shortcuts tend to either not exist at all or be prohibitively inefficient.

 

Why? Why couldn't we have gotten Barajas/Buck/Olivo?

[italstallianion]

I agree those aren't necessarily star studded numbers, but as Dojji mentioned, what is out there and available right now that trumps Salty? I mean you've got Bengie Molina, great defensive catcher but we'd be lucky to get a .205 average out of him. You've got Doumit who can rake but he can't call a game or catch. Montero is a good option but 1. he would cost a ton and 2. he's coming off an injury. You've got Pudge, who is as fragile as Tek and would be a stop gap, but who is going to take his place next year?

 

I think what Dojji said is exactly right. As bad as it sucks, we need to show some patience with Salty. I truly believe that he will come around and be an above average catcher, he just needs a little time, definitely more than 14 games. I really think that if we were 13-8 right now, and Crawford was hitting, this wouldn't be as big of an issue. Theo has loved this guy for a while, and he's one of the best young-talent evaluators I've seen, as shown by how well he drafts.

 

Think about this. When Craw starts hitting, Tito said he likes Crawford in the 3 slot. That means our line up will be:

 

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Crawford

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Lowrie

Salty

Drew

 

You can flip flop Salty and Drew, I like having Drew in the 9 hole because of his OBP and he can turn over the line up a good % of the time. Either way - when our offense is clicking, we have ONE hole. And that's Salty. So when we start clicking, we can hide his bat a little bit and take some pressure off of him and give him a fair shot.

 

 

 

Two holes if you count the fact that Tito will keep starting Scutaro over Lowrie.

[MJantomaso]

Two holes if you count the fact that Tito will keep starting Scutaro over Lowrie.

 

He started Scutaro to give Lowrie a day off. I dont see how some of you people dont realize that. I dont think Lowrie has put in Half an MLB season without getting hurt yet. He played 8 straight games...give him a rest. Plus Scutaro came up big when he had to fill in.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I'm pretty sure Italian was being sarcastic and ripping Tito for often times being overly loyal to veteran players.

[MJantomaso]

I'm pretty sure Italian was being sarcastic and ripping Tito for often times being overly loyal to veteran players.

 

Still, Lowrie isnt going to be an iron man type player. The dude has been as fragile as a 90 yr old women lol. We need to keep him as healthy as possible.

[italstallianion]

I'm pretty sure Italian was being sarcastic and ripping Tito for often times being overly loyal to veteran players.

 

 

YAY!!! Someone finally gets me. It's ok though, I don't blame the new guy. He'll catch on to things eventually. It's all good brother, especially when we're winning.

[ORS]

This team never intended to platoon Salty. He was supposed to be full-time' date=' and that is part of the problem. As you said, [b']Varitek started as a platoon player and earned the spot[/b]. Salty has played like a platoon player and was gifted the spot.

He did?

 

He hit .253/.309/.407 as a 26 y/o catcher (Salty's age this year), playing in 86 games, then he was given the starting job. Saltalamachhia's career line in MLB is .245/.312/.379, in over 250 games. Hard to draw a hard line there.

 

Both were not very good behind the dish to start.

 

I think some patience is warranted.

[Palodios]

He did?

 

I just assumed Dojji had solid facts, I didn't look it up, my bad.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Still' date=' Lowrie isnt going to be an iron man type player. The dude has been as fragile as a 90 yr old women lol. We need to keep him as healthy as possible.[/quote']

 

This is the last post I'm going to make about Lowrie because this is the Catching thread, but it's incredibly unfair to call Lowrie fragile. He had a wrist injury in 2008, which is clearly healed and no longer a problem, as shown by his .320/.397/.563, 12 HR, 36 RBI line over 252 plate appearances. And the only other "injury" that held him out was Mono. That's an illness, not an injury. If Lowrie is injury prone because of Mono, then Lester and Rizzo are day to day every single game because they beat cancer. Lowrie has just had s*** for luck, that's all.

[ORS]

I just assumed Dojji had solid facts' date=' I didn't look it up, my bad.[/quote']

Well, I think what he's getting at is what happened the next year for Varitek. He busted out as an offensive force at the C position (although it still took him a few years to do that with consistency) that year. Saltalamacchia has that potential. Will he reach it? Dunno, but we won't find out if we cut bait.

 

I think there's enough talent on this team, both in the pitching staff and in the lineup, to cover for him while he figures it out. If he doesn't, then move on, but it's worth giving him a good shot.

[VA Sox Fan]

He did?

 

He hit .253/.309/.407 as a 26 y/o catcher (Salty's age this year), playing in 86 games, then he was given the starting job. Saltalamachhia's career line in MLB is .245/.312/.379, in over 250 games. Hard to draw a hard line there.

 

Both were not very good behind the dish to start.

 

I think some patience is warranted.

 

 

Agree 100%.

[VA Sox Fan]

Well, I think what he's getting at is what happened the next year for Varitek. He busted out as an offensive force at the C position (although it still took him a few years to do that with consistency) that year. Saltalamacchia has that potential. Will he reach it? Dunno, but we won't find out if we cut bait.

 

I think there's enough talent on this team, both in the pitching staff and in the lineup, to cover for him while he figures it out. If he doesn't, then move on, but it's worth giving him a good shot.

 

EXACTLY. Agree again.

 

Not exactly making a direct comparison but SO many people were calling for Papi to be let go in April 2010, he looked done and lost at the plate. I realize he is only DHing.

[a700hitter]

Ellsbury

Pedroia

Crawford

Gonzalez

Youkilis

Ortiz

Lowrie

Salty

Drew

I don't like this lineup. I am a strong believer that your strongest offensive players should get stacked at the top of the lineup. When Crawford gets on track, the lineup should be:

 

1. Crawford

2. Pedroia

3. AGon

4. Youkilis

5. Ortiz

6. Drew/Cameron

7. Lowrie

8. Salty

9. Ellsbury

 

Ellsbury doesn't crack the top 5 on this team. Putting him at the top of the lineup in front of the big boppers would weaken the lineup.

[a700hitter]

EXACTLY. Agree again.

 

Not exactly making a direct comparison but SO many people were calling for Papi to be let go in April 2010, he looked done and lost at the plate. I realize he is only DHing.

There is no comparison to Ortiz. One has a track record of being a tremendous offensive force who likes the warmer weather. Salty has no track record. Have some patience, but it shouldn't extend beyond the end of May. Let's hope he doesn't hit one of our starters with his spike throws to second base.

[Palodios]

He hit .253/.309/.407 as a 26 y/o catcher (Salty's age this year), playing in 86 games, then he was given the starting job. Saltalamachhia's career line in MLB is .245/.312/.379, in over 250 games. Hard to draw a hard line there.

.

 

Looking over the stats, I do not agree with the Varitek comparison. He had a rough first half in the first half of his rookie year--but most rookies struggle a little bit early on. But then, he came back with a .785 OPS after the ASB of that year.

 

Saltalamacchia is in his 5th year in the majors, not his first.

 

Not exactly making a direct comparison but SO many people were calling for Papi to be let go in April 2010' date=' he looked done and lost at the plate. I realize he is only DHing.[/quote']

 

Again, this kind of comparison doesn't take into account things like prior performance, or skill sets.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I don't like this lineup. I am a strong believer that your strongest offensive players should get stacked at the top of the lineup. When Crawford gets on track, the lineup should be:

 

1. Crawford

2. Pedroia

3. AGon

4. Youkilis

5. Ortiz

6. Drew/Cameron

7. Lowrie

8. Salty

9. Ellsbury

 

Ellsbury doesn't crack the top 5 on this team. Putting him at the top of the lineup in front of the big boppers would weaken the lineup.

 

I don't understand this logic for a couple reasons.

 

1. Crawford doesn't like leading off. He's said it before. He may have tried to take those comments back in a PR statement, but he doesn't like it. Out of our entire offense, him, Pedey, and Youk all said they don't like leading off. So why put him leadoff when we have a guy in Ellsbury who is just 1 injured season off of hitting .300 with a .350 OBP and 70 steals in the leadoff role?

 

2. Adrian Gonzalez is hitting .258 with a .686 OPS in the 3 slot this year. Compare that with his games hitting 4th and 5th, in which he hit .368 with a 1.061 OPS. That's consistent with his career too, as he has hit just 1 less HR in 56 fewer AB batting 4th compared to 3rd.

 

3. At home, Pedroia wears out the monster. He hits double after double after double. If you hit him 3rd (I know, he's in the 2 hole in my original line up, but I think he should a 3 hole hitter), you have Craw and Ells who can both score from 1st on a double off the monster. That would come in huge if Pedey hit 3. Plus, Pedroia is a .305+, 20+ HR, 40+ Double guy, which is fine for the 3 slot.

 

4. Final point - By hitting Ells - Craw - Pedey in the top 3 of the order, you're extending the order all the way down. I'd rather have 3 guys who can get on base and get into scoring position at the top of the order for our big boys coming behind them to knock them in.

 

Oh - one more thing. Jed Lowrie's ability to hit for power and average, get on base at a solid clip, and split up Ortiz and Drew, our two biggest holes vs LHP, that's invaluable when an opposing manager has to go to the bullpen. Even as much as people love him, I still don't think we realize just how valuable he is.

[a700hitter]

I don't understand this logic for a couple reasons.

 

1. Crawford doesn't like leading off. He's said it before. He may have tried to take those comments back in a PR statement, but he doesn't like it. Out of our entire offense, him, Pedey, and Youk all said they don't like leading off. So why put him leadoff when we have a guy in Ellsbury who is just 1 injured season off of hitting .300 with a .350 OBP and 70 steals in the leadoff role?

 

2. Adrian Gonzalez is hitting .258 with a .686 OPS in the 3 slot this year. Compare that with his games hitting 4th and 5th, in which he hit .368 with a 1.061 OPS. That's consistent with his career too, as he has hit just 1 less HR in 56 fewer AB batting 4th compared to 3rd.

 

3. At home, Pedroia wears out the monster. He hits double after double after double. If you hit him 3rd (I know, he's in the 2 hole in my original line up, but I think he should a 3 hole hitter), you have Craw and Ells who can both score from 1st on a double off the monster. That would come in huge if Pedey hit 3. Plus, Pedroia is a .305+, 20+ HR, 40+ Double guy, which is fine for the 3 slot.

 

4. Final point - By hitting Ells - Craw - Pedey in the top 3 of the order, you're extending the order all the way down. I'd rather have 3 guys who can get on base and get into scoring position at the top of the order for our big boys coming behind them to knock them in.

 

Oh - one more thing. Jed Lowrie's ability to hit for power and average, get on base at a solid clip, and split up Ortiz and Drew, our two biggest holes vs LHP, that's invaluable when an opposing manager has to go to the bullpen. Even as much as people love him, I still don't think we realize just how valuable he is.

I'll restate my reason. I am a strong believer that the strongest lineups bunch the best hitters at the top of the lineup. Ellsbury is not in this teams top 5 offensive players. Take the top 5 that i gave you and switch them around a bit if you like and I'd be okay with that. Maybe Pedroia first and Crawford second or maybe Youk third and Gonzo 4th. It really doesn't matter. The important thing is that they bat in the top 5 slots with Ortiz hitting 5th. This is all conditioned upon Crawford getting straightened out. Until then Lowrie is in that top 5.

[DirtDog]

This is the last post I'm going to make about Lowrie because this is the Catching thread' date=' but it's incredibly unfair to call Lowrie fragile. He had a wrist injury in 2008, which is clearly healed and no longer a problem, as shown by his .320/.397/.563, 12 HR, 36 RBI line over 252 plate appearances. [b']And the only other "injury" that held him out was Mono. That's an illness, not an injury. If Lowrie is injury prone because of Mono, then Lester and Rizzo are day to day every single game because they beat cancer. Lowrie has just had s*** for luck, that's all[/b].

 

AMEN on that brother